Text 26920, 151 rader
Skriven 2012-03-18 09:59:40 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
  Kommentar till text 26903 av Roy Witt (1:387/22)
Ärende: Nicholas Kill's name
============================
Roy Witt wrote to Robert Bashe on Saturday March 17 2012 at 08:20:

RB>> I was talking about the trouble a recipient has to transport a paper
RB>> check to the bank and the time it takes to clear, not about the
RB>> processing time in the bank.

RW> The Check 21 Act doesn't require the recipient to transport anything
RW> to a bank.

[Sigh] I feel certain we're talking to cross purposes.

You have to write (or order your bank to have written) a check, do you not? And
that check has to be somehow transported to the recipient, dies it not? And the
recipient has to present that check somewhere for payment, does he not?

What happens afterward may well be what you state, but the process up to that
point is as I mentioned above.

RB>> A "normal" payment here simply appears as a credit in your account
RB>> max. 3 days (and often sooner) after the transfer was initiated at
RB>> the payer's bank (in future the EU plans to cut the allowable time to
RB>> only _one_ day). You have immediate and full use of the money.

RW> You should have immediate access to it when it arrives in your
RW> account.

A _check_?? In the States? And what happens if it bounces?

RB>> When I send a check, the recipient first has to physically process
RB>> it, get it to the bank, and then the money is credited to his account

RW> Such an ancient banking system. And here you thought the Euro banking
RW> system was some how superior to the American system.

Roy, you have no idea what you're talking about. A check _must_ be presented to
be cashed, whether you do it at a bank, a supermarket or whatever. Otherwise
it's just a piece of paper, and not even as negotiable as a $5 bill.

RB>> - but with a proviso that the sum will be debited to the account if
RB>> the check bounces. You only get full, unlimited use of the money 10
RB>> days after the check has been deposited.

RW> LOL! Such an ancient banking system.

Bullshit. Now you're trying to get a rise ;-)

RB>> I'm aware of the system, but the disadvantage is that you still have
RB>> to send a _paper_ check through the mail (several days delivery time)

RW> This is part of the 'punish the payee' syndrome that Check 21 diverts
RW> to no punishment at all, by instant electronic transfer of payment.

AFTER the payee has presented the check for payment.

RB>> and the recipient still has to cash it and wait for the check to
RB>> clear. This isn't comparable to the direct account transfer system we
RB>> use here.

RW> Such an ancient banking system.

;-) You're repeating yourself.

RB>> But you point out still another matter - you have to make out paper
RB>> checks, get them into an envelope and pay postage to get them mailed
RB>> (or have your bank do this for you, so-called "Internet payment"
RB>> which doesn't have much to do with the Internet at all).

RW> That is a choice that I make, not a rule of thumb to judge the
RW> American banking system by.

You have no oither choice except when making payments to entities like large
companies, utilities or the government. _That's_ the point. And I judge the
American banking system on the basis of it's fees, it's inability to make
direct account transfers and it's reliance on the antiquated paper check
system.

RB>> All I have to do is use a home banking program to make out an account
RB>> transfer slip and send it off via the Internet to the bank computer.
RB>> Never have to leave my chair behind the monitor to do that, and so I
RB>> pay my bills as they arrive.

RW> Too bad too. You could probably use the excercise in making the trip
RW> to your postal box at the curb, or on your porch. Or don't they pickup
RW> out going mail in Germany?

Nice diversion attempt ;-)

RB>> Or I set up an automatic payment on such and such a day of each month
RB>> (or every quarter, or on a specific day) for recurring payments, and
RB>> can then forget the affair. Or I can also allow the payee to directly
RB>> withdraw the payment from my account, something that is very popular
RB>> here (by law, you can reverse the debit without giving a reason for
RB>> up to 6 weeks after it is made, and the payee has to foot the bill),
RB>> but that I don't care for since I like to do my banking myself.

RW> I refuse to allow that to happen, simply because they will take the
RW> money out, or attempt to at their leisure instead of mine. i.e. They
RW> want it on the 1st, I don't want them to have it until the 2nd
RW> Wednesday of each month.

Assuming such a thing is even possible in the States, the problem is
legislation allowing you to reverse such debits when made (intentionally or
unintentionally) without your authorization. Does such legislation exist and is
it national rather than state legislation?

RW>>> If that applies to an electronic transfer as outlined above (Check
RW>>> 21), then that is the same day the paper check is processed by the
RW>>> payee.

RB>> Not quite. First, the payee has to receive the check. Then - cursing
RB>> me for the inconvenience ;-) - he has to process the check in his
RB>> accounting.

RW> This is where the banking systems of the EU v US end.

Not quite. I don't normally use checks except to irritate a payee. A direct
account transfer is much easier and faster.

RB>> Then he has to send the check to his bank. Then there's a 10-day
RB>> period in which he has no full, unlimited access to the money.

RW> This is where the two systems differ. Check 21 allows the recipient to
RW> change the paper into an instantanios electronic payment. There is no
RW> one in between the recipient and the bank.

Depends on your bank, I guess. The ones I'm familiar with credit your account
with a check, but you can only make use of the money after a certain period of
7-10 days. In this case, I mean in the USA, not in Germany.

RW>>> i.e. electronic transfer from account to account...

RB>> Only after the check has arrived at the payee. In the direct acount
RB>> transfer, nothing ever has to be on paper, and there is no time lost
RB>> sending a check through the mail.

RW> If one prefers a time-loss, that is the best route to follow. It
RW> doesn't negate the fact that a paper check may be used to instantly
RW> transfer payment within a few minutes of processing time once it is in
RW> the hands of the payee.

ONCE IT IS IN THE HANDS OF THE PAYEE. Thanks for the confirmation.

I really think we can finish up this particular thread, Roy. The fact is simply
that I'm familiar with _both_systems and you know only one of the two. Even
granting differences among banks, I think I have a better basis for comparison
than you do.

Cheers, Bob

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