Text 29385, 450 rader
Skriven 2012-06-01 06:19:46 av Roy Witt (1:387/22)
  Kommentar till text 29358 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: The real free world..
=============================
01 Jun 12 09:38, Robert Bashe wrote to Roy Witt:

 RW>>>> LOL! Tell that to the union goons in Germany who TRIED to tell GM
 RW>>>> that they couldn't close an Opel plant and move it to
 RW>>>> Poland...Many Poles will be enjoying new found employment thanks
 RW>>>> to stupid union goons, come 2014.

 RB>>> If I may say something here, being in the area and knowing
 RB>>> something about the subject...

 RW>> You're saying that you know more about it than Deutsch-Welle has
 RW>> reported on their website and newsletter?

 RB> Of course. Bochum is right next door to where I live. All you do is
 RB> read the national news.

Written by media reporters who have a habit of digging for and reporting
the facts. If their reports were based in rumor from an outsider, they'd
soon be looking for a different vocation.

 RB>>> The plant in question is in Bochum, a bit down the road from me,
 RB>>> and has had many financial problems over the years, not least
 RB>>> because of the fact that company policy is decided in the USA and
 RB>>> not in Germany. Opel used to be quite popular here, but has gone
 RB>>> downhill because the models simply didn't keep up with modern
 RB>>> developments such as those we see from companies like Toyota and
 RB>>> Hyundai (or even VW, BMW and Mercedes).

 RW>> In your opinion.

 RB> No, in the opinions of quite a number of people in the industry here
 RB> in Germany.

But not according to the media reporters.

 RB>>> There were and are several reasons for this, one being the
 RB>>> relatively high wages and strict labor laws in Germany (not "union
 RB>>> goons"),

 RW>> Unions are run by goons...labor laws are enforced by the state.
 RW>> That's how it works worldwide.

 RB> In the States. You have no idea what the situation is in Germany. The
 RB> news reports don't tell everything.

The news report does ask for input from its readers. I give them my input
quite often and find that they never really give a damn what their readers
think. However, they do show what locals think and say on their blogs.
Which is a very good source of the 'local' situation.

 RB>>> another the fact that GM siphons off the cash that would be needed
 RB>>> for model development instead of leaving it with Opel,

 RW>> Because Opels are designed in GM studios, located in the states.
 RW>> Even Japanese vehicles are designed in studios located in the
 RW>> states.

 RB> No, in this case you're dead wrong. Opels are designed in Germany.

LOL! BS!

 RB> GM benefits from the engineering done here.

More BS...

 RB> As for Japanese vehicles, it would depend what you're talking about.
 RB> Those made for sale in the USA may well be specially designed for
 RB> that market.

And those for sale in China? Designed in Germany, my ass. When SAIC
combined with GM to increase the 50 Opel dealers in China to 300,
guess who has the design say-so.

 RB>>> and a third the fact that Opel is artificially restricted in it's
 RB>>> markets by GM USA.

 RW>> I don't think so. GM owns Holden - Australia and those vehicles are
 RW>> sold worldwide.

 RB> The subject was Opel, not Holden, and...

You should read your own German publications. Holden is just one example
of corporate GM sales and a much better example of international markets.

 RW>> Opels are also sold here.

 RB> Maybe, but no longer by GM.

Buick is manufactured by GM and the Buick New Regal relies heavily on
Opel's platform. BTW, the New Regal is assembled in China by SAIC. At
least Opel gets to supply SAIC with the basics.

 RB> Opel is restricted to western and central Europe.

Wrong. Opel is being marketed in China by SAIC. This collaboration was
probably proposed unilaterally by Opel, which has suffered losses for 10
consecutive years in Germany. As a senior partner with SAIC, GM had the
final say so in 'where' the Opel is sold.

 RB> Even eastern Europe, where their chances might be better, is
 RB> off limits.

If they have to pay for them in Euro, then they can't afford them because
of the inflated Euro vs 'bubble gum' currency of Eastern (Rumania) Europe.

 RB> Times have changed since GM imported the Opel Kadett to the States to
 RB> compete with the VW Beetle.

Opel predicted that it would sell 1.4 million cars in 2012, 100,000
vehicles fewer than in its reform plan. As a result, the company is
expected to suffer 1 billion euros (US$1.30 billion) in pretax losses and
will have to admit its failure in strategy.

 RW>> I suspect that they'll be made in China soon and sold worldwide,
 RW>> with a price that everyone can afford.

 RB> If GM sells Opel (I mean Adam Opel AG), that would be a possibility.

That isn't going to happen. Instead, GM and SAIC have joined together to
make Opels in China. With that agreement, the car-line will change to
conform to Chinese standards and be sold as a second-tier brand in China
and GM has no intentions of rebranding it, though it hopes to boost Opel's
sales by 10% in the Chinese market.

 RB>>> The places Opel could sell more cars are off limits to it, not
 RB>>> because of local policies, but because GM says "no".

 RW>> GM, like any other company in the world, should have a say so in
 RW>> where their products can be manufactured and sold. Just like VW
 RW>> manufactures in Mexico and Brazil and sells them to any market that
 RW>> they'll move in.

 RB> That's naturally another matter entirely.

Which will bring about the demise for Opels made in Europe, even after the
Poles take a cut in wages.

 RB>>> So here you have a company that is being hamstrung by policies set
 RB>>> overseas, far from the local company, and quite a lot of employees
 RB>>> -

 RW>> I guess you're not aware that 'overseas' companies do marketing
 RW>> research before they begin to export vehicles there. They use
 RW>> potentially (export market) local companies to do that research. The
 RW>> Japanese are famous for their market research practices.

 RB> GM is doing what GM thinks is best for GM, whatever effect that has
 RB> on Opel Germany. No question about that. But it doesn't make GM very
 RB> popular in this part of the world.

I'm sure that a European popularity contest is of no interest to GM after
10 straight years of total losses there.

 RB>>> I think still around 20,000 at Bochum alone - who have already
 RB>>> given up benefits and accepted wage cuts several times to keep the
 RB>>> plant open and running, and now despite such sacrifices are seeing
 RB>>> that everything they have done is still not enough for GM USA.

 RW>> When a union and its workers affect the bottom line, GM, like any
 RW>> other company will find places with 'right to work' laws...

 RB> Roy, now you're talking about the States, not about Europe.

That's right. There is no such place in Europe...

 RB> There are no "union shops" here and no "right to work laws" either.

If there's a worker union, there are union shops. Too bad about the lack
of right to work laws in Europe.

 RB> You get a job according to your training and capabilities, and
 RB> although there _are_ unions, only a minority of employees actually
 RB> belong to them.

There's no difference between US and Euro union shops then.

 RB> The situation here is totally different from that in the States.

I've worked with Europeans here in the states. They come to work dressed
in a suit and carrying a brief case (especially Germans), even though
their job is as a grunt on the frontlines.

Once on company property, out of site of the general population, they
switch into work clothes befitting their jobs and when lunch time comes
around, they open their brief cases and pull out a sandwich. When the day
is done, they reverse the procedure and ride the trolly or train home,
just like a doctor, lawyer or politician would do. Some of them even have
automobiles.

 RB>>> This is a pity, as Opel used to be one of the main German
 RB>>> automakers, along with VW, BMW and Mercedes - but those three are
 RB>>> German companies, with the policies set here.

 RW>> Each of which have assembly plants in the states as well as South
 RW>> America. They're tired of the labor unions and laws that favor
 RW>> unions.

 RB> And mainly, they're tired of paying German workers relatively high
 RB> salaries in expensive Euro, and then having to pay for shipping cars
 RB> from Germany to the States to be sold for cheap Dollars.

So they make and sell their cars in China to boost their bottom line.

 RB>  So they manufacture where the cars are bought and take advantage of
 RB> the relatively cheap labor and the advantage of the "hire and fire"
 RB> mentality in the States.

The mentality is for the benefit of those who're willing to do the labor.

If you're a slacker and don't do your job (others have to pick up the
slack and do your job for you - union mentality), you can be replaced by
somebody who is worthy of the pay.

As one floor sweeper tried to tell me when I fired him; 'but I's your
token nigger'. I told him that he's going to be replaced by yet another
token...

 RB> It's not easy to fire someone here in Germany without some very good
 RB> reason.

That's what they think when they come here to work too. Much to their
suprise, they can be out the door before they even get their suits off.

 RW>> I don't blame them, as union labor has taken a toll on GMs bottom
 RW>> line and the vehicles produced by labor unions is sub-par.

 RB> You're still speaking from an American point of view.

It's the only point of view afaic...

 RW>> Bottom line is a driving force that makes companies do what is
 RW>> needed for the company to survive...if it isn't profitable to make
 RW>> and sell in one place (Germany), the company will be looking for
 RW>> some place that is (Poland or China).

 RB> True, but there is such a thing as image, and GM's image in Germany
 RB> is not the best. Which is not really a negligible factor, as the
 RB> Germans have more money to buy cars than a lot of the other EU
 RB> countries.

So, their image isn't going to sell anymore Opels in Europe anyway.

 RB>>> I can still remember the Nokia plant - also in Bochum, also a large
 RB>>> plant - being closed and the production transferred to Rumania,
 RB>>> similarly because of labor costs. That was only a few years back,
 RB>>> and cost Nokia dearly in the German market, one of the technology
 RB>>> highpoints of the continent.

 RW>> Fortunately for Nokia, their market has expanded from Rumania and
 RW>> soon from China into the American (north and south) and Asian
 RW>> markets, where they're very profitable. My newest cellphone is a
 RW>> Nokia.

 RB> They didn't "expand" into Romania, Roy. They built a plant there to
 RB> take advantage of the lower labopr costs, and have now shut it down
 RB> after only a couple of years.

What part of "market expansion" went over your head.

 RB> And calling Nokia "very profitable" nowadays is ignoring the facts.

Actually, Apple is the only company that had surpassed Nokia in profits
for the first time in 2010...probably due to the expenses incurred in
their move to Rumania.

 RB> As for your cellphone, it depends on what you want to do. If you just
 RB> want to phone, any brand is OK.

Yeah, just OK...usually the OK brands will fail in less time than a two
year contract will end. OK brands are given away when you sign that
contract, brands like Nokia cost extra.

 RB> But there are apparently a lot of people around who like the bells
 RB> and whistles of the iPod & Co and are willing to pay big money for
 RB> the fun.

I have a Kindle Fire for that kind of fun. And other than the initial
cost of the Kindle, it's free to use on the internet anywhere that has
wifi available. Plus, the screen is gigantic compared to an iPod.

 RB>>> And now... the Nokia plant in Rumania, almost brand new, is being
 RB>>> closed as well and all production trensferred to the far east. The
 RB>>> Rumanians are as unhappy about this as the Germans were, and are
 RB>>> demanding that government subsidies paid to Nokia be returned.

 RW>> Hopefully, Nokia will ignore all of that and make their move
 RW>> quickly, before German unions and labor laws send them down the
 RW>> drain.

 RB> Did you even read the above paragraph? The ROMANIAN government is
 RB> demanding return of the subsidies,

Have you ever 'demanded' something in one hand and 'shit in' your other
hand at the same time to see which hand fills up first?

You can't depend on your demands to produce anything substantial, but shit
could surprise you.

 RB> and Nokia has long since left Germany.

LOL!

 RB> You're still judging everything as if it were in the States.

It seems to me to be the only place with a better point of view than
where you're at.

 RB>>> Something like that could happen to GM, too, and if it does Opel
 RB>>> cars may eventually be made in Shanghai. But since their only
 RB>>> markets, by order of GM USA, are in central and western Europe,

 RW>> GM is looking for a market that can sell their products; China is a
 RW>> much faster growing economy than the EU, which is about to go belly
 RW>> up on its own.

 RB> ;-) We were talking about Opel. And as for China, they have their
 RB> problems, too. You should look beyond Europe and see what's going on
 RB> elsewhere.

GM reclaimed its lead in global auto sales in 201l. The company's global
car sales reached 9.02 million vehicles, 7.6% growth year-on-year. Its
sales in China reached 2.3 million vehicles, while its sales in the United
States reached 2.2 million, together accounting for nearly half its total
global sales.

The head of SAIC attributed Opel's losses to its limitations on expanding
its world market share because it has been defined as a European brand.

 RB>>> the whole brand may eventually die. Or be sold off to die like Saab
 RB>>> and Volvo.

 RW>> Doubtful. There is plenty of market in Asia for small, fuel
 RW>> efficient cars that don't have to meet emission laws of the EU or
 RW>> the USA.

 RB> Again: ;-)))) The emission laws in the EU are comparable with those
 RB> in California, i.e. very strict indeed.

Which are driving (no pun) people to live outside the state and commuting
to work. Arizona and Nevada have more California commuters than California
has working residents.

 RB> And if GM would let Opel compete outside of western and central
 RB> Europe, the brand might really have a chance. But that's just not the
 RB> case.

You should read more than just German newspapers...China will be a better
market for Opels very soon.

 RW>> Opel can fit into that criteria very well.

 RB> Roy, you've never seen an Opel in your life if you believe that crap.

I'm not as blind as you are, Bob...

 RB>>> All that is quite an argument for local ownership and local policy
 RB>>> setting, since at least then any failure is clearly one of the
 RB>>> local management.

 RW>> GM has a much better grasp on it than you, I'm sure.

 RB> Maybe, but not better than local management, which is being ignored.

When local management drives the company into 10 years of being non
profitable, they 'should' be ignored.

 RB>>> But just to finish up, this is not one of your typical union
 RB>>> disagreements that have developed in the States from time to time.
 RB>>> The matter isn't that simple.

 RW>> No one has said that it is...GM's bottom line drives the company to
 RW>> be profitable, not unions or German labor laws.

 RB> Get off the hype, will you? Germany is not the USA, and unions are
 RB> not like those in the States, nor are the laws comparable. Stop
 RB> trying to equate the States with Germany. The two just aren't
 RB> comparable.

Which is why Opel will be manufactured and sold in China and then the
world as the new designs catch on. BTW, the latest in Opel design was
originated in China and will be called the Opel Adam... 8^)

 RB> Just for your education, here's how things work in Germany.

 RB> Wage contracts are not set company by company, but industry-wide.
 RB> Representatived of the union or unions, the worker's councils (we
 RB> have worker participation laws in Germany) and employer associations
 RB> meet and work out a plan. Usually that goes something like: worker
 RB> demands 6% increase across the board, employers offer 2%. What
 RB> finally emerges is something like: workers get 5% over a period of
 RB> two years, and low-paid workers get a fixed-sum (not a percentage)
 RB> increase or one-time bonus.

In China, this won't matter.

 RB> Strikes can be called by the unions, but require a poll of union
 RB> members. At least 75% of the members muust vote for strike, and even
 RB> if this happens, not all plants in an industry are stuck, only
 RB> selected ones to demonstrate the determination of the workers. Then,
 RB> if another offer is made by the employers, there must, by law, be
 RB> another poll of the union members. If 50% agree to the new offer, the
 RB> strike is ended. Note the difference between the percentage required
 RB> to call a strike and that required to end it.

Creating a strike breaker is the companies method in the right to make a
profit. If a union is breaking the bank, then they need to be booted out
of existance. The world is changing; Wisconsin's Governer Walker balked at
unions and for his efforts, he's being 'recalled'...however, Walker leads
the opposition in state-wide polling because of his stance against unions.

 RB> I'm not sure whether non-union workers participate in such strikes,
 RB> but assume they usually do. In that case, they naturally receive no
 RB> strike benefits, in contrast to the union members. But strikes here
 RB> are generally not particularly lengthy, maybe a couple of weeks of
 RB> threatening and a few strikes at key plants, and then the parties
 RB> agree to a compromise.

 RB> Generally, however, strikes are rare.

As unions become less and less popular, they're ignored for the most part
by everyone affected by such maneuvers and the company brings in 'scabs'
to do their jobs - at less pay to boot.

I once witnessed how this works when a company (Solar Turbines in SD) -
broke the back of the IAM union that I was forced to join to keep my job
when I worked for them.

A friend of mine was a 'shop steward' (head of his union shop) and I told
him that he was going to have to make a choice in the near future. That
choice was going to be choosing between the union and his job (fork lift
driver).

When the company announced some months later that all of the scabs were
going to retain the union striker's jobs if the union workers didn't
return to work by such and such a date, 90% of them gave up their union
and went back to work at the lower wages that the scabs were being paid.

Solar is still union free today.


                R\%/itt



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