Text 30774, 83 rader
Skriven 2012-07-05 19:14:00 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
  Kommentar till text 30760 av Bjorn Felten (2:203/2)
Ärende: Victory at last! NO to ACTA!
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Bjorn Felten wrote to Robert Bashe on Thursday July 05 2012 at 14:58:

RB>> a) The incident has nothing to do with Texas, or with ACTA.

BF> Obviously Roy thought so. Why else would he drag that up in this
BF> thread?

I didn't see anything of the sort from Roy, only from you.

RB>> the American system is based on punishment for crimes.

BF> I would rather call it revenge.

If you like. Would you prefer that murderers be paroled without prison terms?
The Germans have a system that considers the danger to the public (including
relatives and acquaintences) - even though here, financial crimes (tax evasion,
fraud, embezzlement) are punished more severely than "personal" ones (assault,
murder, manslaughter). This is something that even many Germans find strange,
not to say unjust, but derives from the historical development of law in
Germany. I expect it to change some day.

RB>> Which system is better depends on whether you are a perpetrator or a
RB>> victim.

BF> I don't know how a murder victim can benefit from any punishment of a
BF> perpetrator.

He/she naturally doesn't, but one must also consider the survivors who, after
all, have "some" feelings and desire a bit of justice. And naturally also the
public, that must be protected from dangerous individuals.

There was recently quite a stir here in Germany about still another "honor
murder" (Turks, from eastern Anatolia but on the surface well integrated into
German society), where - as usual - the attempt was made to present the
youngest/least "valuable" member of the family as the _sole_ perpetrator.
Luckily, that didn't work this time. The judge saw through this, and quite a
number of experts on the subject did, too.

Five members of the family have been sentenced to lengthy prison terms, and a
separate trial is scheduled for the "patriarch", although there is only
circumstantial evidence that he was involved and he may be acquitted. Most,
however, believe from his various statements to others prior to the murder,
that he was definitely involved, if he didn't "order" it personally.

So what would you do in such a case? Acquit the lot because they only acted
according to their own culture and religion? Deport the lot, although most were
apparently well integrated in German society? They're surely no danger to
German society, but very definitely to members of their own family, as has been
shown. I see no way of dealing with such things other than a punishment severe
enough to show possible imitators that Germany does not tolerate such behavior
within it's borders - _German_ law applies within Germany, not the sharia or
whatever else may exist elsewhere.

Call that "revenge" if you will:

BF> But I *do* know that the US murder rate is many times higher than in
BF> most European countries. And yes, even per capita. Much more than ten
BF> times higher than in Scandinavia, for instance.

Unfortunately true, but that doesn't mean a Scandanavian is inherently more
peaceful or civilized than an Americvan, just that the systems, the geography
and the populations are vasty different.

Until recently, everyone though Norwegians were all law-abiding people too.
Then the disastrous incident with Mr. Anders Behring Breivik came along and
showed us that there are crazies in every society. I still remember the murders
of Olaf Palme and Anna Lindh.

Human beings are, unfortunately, violent in nature and sometimes such things
surface. That's not an apology for the things that happen in the States and
elsewhere, but certainly an explanation.

I also think more restrictive gun laws would do some good in the States, but
you have over 200 years of tradition plus the constitution against you when you
start pushing for such things. The road is long, but I do see some slow
improvement (hard to buy an assault rifle or machine gun legally in the States
nowadays), and presumably that will continue. It's a slow process, but it
_does_ take place.

Cheers, Bob

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