Text 5132, 149 rader
Skriven 2010-02-22 13:05:21 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
     Kommentar till en text av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: The Dubai Connection
============================
Hello Robert,

On Sunday February 21 2010 16:50, you wrote to me:

 RB>>> Not everyone is a terrorist

 MV>> Everyone can be LABELLED a terrorist.

 RB> Depends on what they do.

No, it depends on whoever does the labelling.

 MV>> You are giving everyone an excuse to eliminate a political
 MV>> opponent. Just label him/her a terrorist et voila.

 RB> ;-) You don't believe that yourself.

It is not a matter of belief, it is matter of logic. If you remove the checks
and balances, allow secret police to act as judge, jury and executioner, what
is stopping someone from saying: "he is a terrorist, kill him"?

 MV>> People who advocate these methods are no better than dictators
 MV>> like Saddam Hussein, Videla en Pinochet, that they claim to want
 MV>> to free this world of.

 RB> If you can't tell the difference, I guess there's no point in my
 RB> trying to point it out.

If you can not see the similarities, I guess there is no point in me trying to
make you see it.

 RB>>> You have to be a pretty bad guy to have people hate you enough to
 RB>>> send an international hit squad after you.

 MV>> Bad is in the eye of the beholder. And are you sure they never
 MV>> make mistakes?

 RB> When someone sends a hit squad to specifically eliminate someone?
 RB> Possible but certainly not the rule.

27 Afghan cilvilians killed when US air force attacks three minivans. They
"thought" they were filled with Taliban. Sorry, small mistake...

Would you like to be one of those mistakes?

 RB> You and your "fair trials"...

Everyone has the right to a fair trial. That is at the basis of our soiciety.
Drop that and you are back at the law of the jungle. No exceptions. One can not
be a "lttle pregnant".

 RB> I often wonder where and under what circumstances you would attempt to
 RB> try someone like the Hamas guy who was killed in Dubai... in Israel?
 RB> In one of the Palastinian courts? In a Hamas court in Gaza? In the
 RB> Hague?

First of all, I would like to know what he has actually done to be labelled a
terrorist. The mere fact that he was a member of Hamas is not enough for me.

 RB> And what your reaction would be if he actually were convicted of
 RB> multiple murder and terrorism: "Kangaroo court!"? And if he were
 RB> acquitted: "justice has been done!"?

That depends on what would emerge in court.

 RB> Aside from which, someone would first have to arrest the guy and ship
 RB> him out - naturally by force, such things don't happen voluntarily -
 RB> to the proper venue.

You mean it is easier to just shoot him from an ambush. Yes, ouf course. But
that also goes for a shoplifting suspect.

 RB> I might remind you that even such people as Mr. Mladic and Mr.
 RB> Karadzic have not been brought to justice yet - Mr. Karadzic was only
 RB> arrested and handed over tio the Hague after being betrayed by one or
 RB> more of his former cronies, and Mr. Mladic, who drew a pension in
 RB> Belgrade up to a few years ago, is still at large.

Your point?

 RB> The fact is that your "fair trials" simply don't exist, and even when
 RB> people try to make them fair, as in the Hague, the people involved
 RB> don't usually volunteer to be tried. So either you use force or
 RB> nothing happens.

The end justifies the means?  No thanks.

 RB>>> You and I wouldn't be worth the trouble.

 MV>> Tell that to the family of Fernando Pereira

 RB> You could also have been on one of the airliners the Palastinians have
 RB> bombed.

Or in one of the buildings in Gaza or Libanon that the Israelis bombed.

 RB> However, that doesn't mean you were personally targeted.
 RB> Neither was Fernando Pereira.

He is dead just the same.

 MV>> So you think it is allright to abuse an antiterrorist law as an
 MV>> instrument in a financial conflict?

 RB> I think you might be amazed to see what all is "abused" at various
 RB> times to achieve an end.

That it happens does not mean it is right. The end does NOT justify the means.

 MV>> The Hamas leaders do not commit genocide.

 RB> Give them time.

So now we are judging people not by what they have done, but by what you think
they may do...

 RB>  Have you really never heard the old threat about "driving the jews
 RB> into the sea"? And do you think that's just a good joke among friends?

I think it is mostly rhetoric. Actions speak louder than words, and when it
comes to actions, I see Israel driving the people of Gaza into the sea, not the
other way around.

 RB>>> Does that mean you condemn Stauffenberg and the rest for attempting
 RB>>> to assassinate him? I doubt it.

 MV>> Winners write history. Hitler lost, so his failed murderer went
 MV>> down in history as a hero. Had Hitler won, Colonel von Stauffenberg
 MV>> would have been on the same list as John Hinckley and Mehmet Ali.

 RB> Maybe, but that wasn't my question.

I can't answer the question without taking sides. I am trying to tell you that
I do not accept your "good guys, bad guys" model of the world. Everyone labels
themselves te good guys and the other side the bad guys. Nobody calle
themselves the bad guys and the other side the good guys. So "good" and "bad"
have become synonyms for "Our Side" and "The Other Side."

If you condone killing people form the other side by hit squads, don't be
surprised if the other side does it to your side too.

After all from THEIR point of view they are the good guys and you are the bad
guy. You always claim to look at things from both sides....


Cheers, Michiel

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