Text 5271, 178 rader
Skriven 2010-02-25 11:44:59 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
     Kommentar till en text av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: The Dubai Connection
============================
Hello Robert,

On Thursday February 25 2010 06:38, you wrote to me:

 MV>> If the MOSSAD decides to label you a terrorist, there is nothing
 MV>> you can do about it.

 RB> ;-) Depends on what I do.

You voted for the Pirate Party. You openly admitted to it in this forum. If the
MOSSAD decides that is enough to put you on their hit list, what are you going
to do about it?

 MV>> On further reflection I suspect that is precisely what happened.
 MV>> Israel has a history of eliminating Palestinian leaders.

 RB> Don't worry about facts or proof - _you_ "know"!

The word I used was "suspect", not "know".

 RB> So now what exactly do you think separates our thinking? Seems to me

Things are not always as they seem to you.

 RB>>> You really should read what I write. OK, I'll emphasize it:
 RB>>> SPECIFICALLY ELIMINATE. Did that get through?

 MV>> I wonder why you make that articificial distinction. Three
 MV>> minivans with taliban warriors were specifically targetted.

 RB> The vans. Not the persons.

Nonsense. It was the people in the vans that were the target. They were
targeted because they were suspected of being taliban warriors.

 RB> And as for "artificial" distinctions, I seem to remember that you were
 RB> one of the people making a very artificial distinction between murder
 RB> and manslaughter not too many months ago, and I was one of those
 RB> pointing out that the victim was dead regardless of what judicial
 RB> distinctions might exist.

Your point?

 RB> Now I see you've jumped over the fence. Has your attitude toward
 RB> murder changed, too? Or only murder when it's carried out by specific
 RB> groups?

I say the kinnng of that guy in Dubai was murder.

 RB>>> And the chance of that happening to me - or to you - are as close
 RB>>> to zero as you can get without actully being zero.

 MV>> Tell that to the fotographer who died on the Rainbow warrior.

 RB> He was NOT specifically targeted. The ship was.

It is still murder.

 RB> To repeat myself still again, he was in the wrong place at the wrong
 RB> time. Such things unfortunately happen.

Crap. That wasn't an accident.

 MV>> I do not condone murder. But I say the court room is the place to
 MV>> determine guilt or innocence. Not the office of the head of the
 MV>> MOSAD. And if/when found guilty it is for the court to set the
 MV>> sentence.

 RB> For normal criminals in normal societies a practical way of doing
 RB> things.

The problem is who decides what qualifies as a "normal criminal".

Is it really so hard to understand that if you leave that decision to secreat
agencies, the whole idea of fair trial becomes meaningless?

 RB>  For crimes in chaotic, lawless societies

Dubai is a lawless society?

 RB>  - and the Palastinian areas of Israel can certainly claim that
 RB> distinction, in particular Gaza - a pretty illusion.

Says who? The Isralelies?

 RB> How about catching and trying the people who kidnapped the Israeli
 RB> soldier several years ago - and who still hasn't been released despite
 RB> many claims and promises to do so?

Being caught by the enemy is the risk of being a soldier. Prisoners of was are
not usually released until the war is over. So I presume that prisoner of war
will be released when the was officially ends. But then of course Israel will
have to release their POWs as well.

 RB> Forget it - it won't happen.

Of course not. Israel does not want to end the war. They want the Palestinians
driven into the sea.

 RB> Although I'd like to see you in Gaza, trying to secure his release and
 RB> promising a "fair trial" to the kidnappers.

Kidnappers? Since when does making prisoners of war equate to kidnapping?

 MV>> Your opinion on what he as is irrelevant. What he was is for the
 MV>> courts to decide, not you or the MOSSAD.

 RB> I'm not talking about _my_ opinion, Michiel.

Then who's opinionare you talking about? Thta of the MOSSAD?

 RB> You aren't so obtuse that you disbelieve _anything_ that's reported
 RB> unless Hamas itself confesses, are you?

I have sincere reserations aboput anything that is reported by Israel.

 RB>>> Was that the subject here?

 MV>> Hit squads eliminating people that are in someone's way.

 RB> No, hit sqads eliminativg _specific_ people for a specific reason. Not
 RB> attacks on an object in which people who weren't specifically targeted
 RB> are hurt or killed.

I do not make that distinction.

 MV>> What comes to mind is that Russion spy who was poisoned with
 MV>> radio active material and who died in a London hospital. I suppose
 MV>> you consider that all right too then?

 RB> That was indeed a specific assassination, as was the previous one in
 RB> London of a Bulgarian (who was poisoned with ricin using a pointed
 RB> umbrella). At least you didn't cite something general this time.

But you evade the question. Do you think that murder was all right?

 RB> As for my attitude, I'd just like to note that I think there's a
 RB> difference between political assassinations as these appear to be and
 RB> elimination of a known terrorist attempting to obtain weapons for
 RB> further acts of terrorism.

I do not see much difference between someone with the power to have oit carried
out, saying "he is a terrorist, kil him" or someone saying "he is a spy, kill
him". Or someone saying "he is an infidel, kill him" .

May as well make that "he is a {whatever qualification that allows me to issue
such a verdict}, kill him.

Since the decider of what qualifies is the same as the one issuing the order,
it does not matter what the label is. It may as well be honest and say
"political opponent".

 MV>> Related is the case of Salmon Rusdie. Declared an outlaw for
 MV>> writing the wrong things.

 RB> And not really pertinent here, as the man isn't a terrorist nor has he
 RB> ever murdered anyone.

In the eyes of those that gave the order, he is an infidel. To them that is
worse than a terrorist.

 RB> To the contrary, the religious zelots who go after such people -
 RB> remember the one who tried to kill the Mohammed cartoonist in Denmark
 RB> recently? - are themselves terrorists.

So you say. And I would tend to agree with you. The problem is that to THEM it
is the other way around. To THEM, it is US that are the bad guys that deserve
to die and it is THEM that are fighting for a holy cause.

Who decides who's holy cause takes precedence?

This will never stop if not the actions of BOTH sides are condemned.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)