Text 7324, 96 rader
Skriven 2010-04-27 10:40:13 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
     Kommentar till en text av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Question about democracy
================================
Hello Robert,

On Monday April 26 2010 16:46, you wrote to me:

 RB> Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Monday April 26 2010 at
 RB> 09:18:

 MV>> You do not seem to have much faith in elected representatives.

 RB> Now you finally understand me ;-)))

I still do not understand why you want to "help" others adopt a system that you
yourself have no faith in...

 RB> [The EU "Constitution"]

 MV>> That one failed because of clumsy presentation.

 RB> No, because the populations who were allowed a say in the matter
 RB> rejected such a mess out of hand.

You do not know what you are talking about. *I* know why it failed here. I live
here, you do not.

 MV>> The next one was adopted.

 RB> After most of the populations were excluded from participation and
 RB> those who could not be were pressured into voting in favor.

How do you "pressure" the voters into voting "in favor"?

 RB> In Ireland, the rule was "we'll keep the people voting on the issue
 RB> until we get the result we want". Great little "democracy".

No, the second time they explained it better and then the voters saw the light.

 MV>> We already HAVE the situation that the EU overrules national law.
 MV>> Think about the EU court.

 RB> No, at least not in Germany.

That is what you think.

 RB> The EU court can override decisions of the German supreme court, but
 RB> not those of the constitutional court.

Says who? As I wrote, the dust has not settled yet. We will see how it will
work out in the end.

 RB> I personally think any attempt to do so would result in chaos, at
 RB> least in Germany.

You are not representative for the German people.

 RB> Ever hear of the "gray panthers"? ;-)

No. I only know the Pink Panthers. :-)

 MV>> I think it will be EASIER in Europe than in the US. We do not have
 MV>> that almost pathological aversion against government.

 RB> Speak for yourself.

Obviously, the "we" did not include you. As has been pointed out many times,
your attitude is not typical for a European or German. You were raised in the
USA and that shows in your attitude.

 RB> And of course, it's also a moot question whether that's an advantage
 RB> or a disadvantage.

I say that typical Amercian aversion against government - that you show too -
is a liability.

 MV>> We accept that government and the things that come with it - for
 MV>> example taxes - are a necessary evil. Plus that we have a long
 MV>> history of living with compromise.

 RB> The last sentence is surely true, although European history doesn't
 RB> always reflect it, but the docile acceptence of authority you seem to
 RB> imply

Those are your words. It is a long leap from "almost pathological aversion
against government" to "docile acceptance of authority".

 RB>  is not universal in the EU - not even in Germany, the home of
 RB> docile acceptance of authority.

Never said it was.

But "we" are not saddled with that typical American allergy against government.


Cheers, Michiel

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