Text 8907, 144 rader
Skriven 2010-06-25 14:25:29 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
     Kommentar till en text av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Fate
============
Hello Robert,

On Sunday June 20 2010 14:58, you wrote to me:

 MV>> The vast majority of the guests of the Gitmo Hotel are completely
 MV>> innocent.

 RB> Your claim and belief.

*My* claim? That's giving me too much credit. I wasn't the first and not the
only one to say this. Not by far. And it is not a belief. On the contrary, it
is absence of belief. The belief that all the guests of the Gitmo hotel are
dangerous terrorists. Keep in mind that the people telling us they are, are the
same people that told us there were WMD's in Iraq.

"Presumed innocent until found guilty in a court of law". All but a few have
not been tried and probably never will. Why are they not tried? Could that be
because there is nothing to charge them with that will hold up in court?

 RB> I'm sure nobody would object if you were to invite one of them to live
 RB> in your home -

I do not know if anyone will object but it is a moot point as that is not going
to happen. I have a variety of reasons, a prime one is that I am not
responsible. The sequence of events that led up to this situation was not of my
doing. I did not support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. On the contrary, I
loudly protested. If a situation has arisen that makes it necessary to find new
homes for these people, the burden falls on those that supported the actions
that led up to this situation. IIRC you supported the invasions of Iraq and
Afghanistan.

 RB>>> I'm all for criticising politicians, but sometimes they do have
 RB>>> reasons for doing what they do.

 MV>> Bob you are the victim of the Terror Of Fear.

 RB> I'm a victim of facts, Michiel.

What you *believe* to be facts.

 RB> You like to "believe" a lot of things, but I don't happen to be a
 RB> believer.

You say you are not a believer but your actions contradict that. You accept
things as fact just because people say so. That is believing. You accepted it
as fact that there were WMD's in Iraq and now you accept as fact that the
guests of the Gitmpo hotel are dangerous terrorists that we can not afford to
ever let free.

 MV>> The cance of you becoming a vitim of a terrorist attack is smaller
 MV>> than the chance of being struck by lightning.

 RB> Which is a completely different subject, even ignoring the fact that
 RB> reasonable people take precautions against being struck by lightening.

The key word being "reasonable".  Yes, people take precautions. But they do not
lock themselves in a Faraday cage because they are so terribly frightened of
being hit by lightning. They do not, because that is NOT reasonable. The cure
would be far worse than the disease. And the same hold for the so called war on
terror.

 MV>> Al Qaida is not a threat. When was their last _succesful_ attack
 MV>> in the western world?

 RB> ;-) So you want to wait until something else happens and only _then_
 RB> get excited?

If something hasn't happened for a long time, that often is a good indication
that the risk is not as high as originally estimated.

 RB>  How about trying to prevent future occurrences? You don't
 RB> do that by sitting on your hands and believeing everybody is "nice".

I refuse to live in a police state, just because some sissies have themselves
talked into a state of shitless fear over a handful of extremists that make
havoc in places were there never was peace in the first place.

If you want to live in a police state, where Big Brother watches your every
move with the excuse of protection you from terrorists, fine. But don't force
met to do the same. I refuse to give up my freedom for (perceived) security.

 MV>> The odd thing is that it is something you abhor on the one hand,
 MV>> but on the other hand contribute to by falling for the terror of
 MV>> fear.

 RB> Not odd at all. I have my own mind and can make my own decisions. I
 RB> don't believe all the hype, but on the other hand, I also don't ignore
 RB> facts.

Again: what you believe to be facts, but what in reality is propaganda from
those who need an excuse to create a police state.

 MV>> Of course. The Americans created the problem. Let them be the one
 MV>> to solve it.

 RB> OK, fine. Then everybody else should shut up and let the Americans do
 RB> as they feel best.

That is what they have been doing all along and that is what got them into this
mess in the first place.

 RB> Who needs kibitzers who like to talk a good game but aren't willing to
 RB> lift a finger when the chips are down?

Indeed I am not willing to lift a finger to clean up the mess made by others.
The Americans created this mess. I spoke loudly against it. Now that the shit
has hit the fan, let them clean it up themselves.

 RB>>> I assume you've heard of "Fitna"?

 MV>> Of course I have. I am surprised so many people take it serious.

 RB> Are you? Then you apparently never heard of the "Fatwa" against Salman
 RB> Rushdie or the murder of Theo van Gogh (and more-or-less voluntary
 RB> exile of Ayaan Hirsi Ali) or the death threats against the Danish
 RB> cartoonists or... c'mon Michiel,

All isolated incidents. Van Gogh was murdered by a religeous fanatic acting on
his own. Hirshi Ali is a trouble maker that brought it on herself. Her exile
was her own choice. She could get a better job in the USA. Good luck to her.

 RB>  you read the news too. Don't play ignorant. People here are scared
 RB> stiff of aggressive muslims.

Speak for yourself. I am NOT scared stiff of agressive muslims.

 RB>>> That may or may not be an improvement, depending on your
 RB>>> position.

 MV>> As I wrote, he has been neutralised.

 RB> Yeah, sure.

He has been neutralised as a factor in government.

Indeed ha may not be an improvement over Balkenende. But who says he is the
replacement? Is still see that fact that we finally got rid of Balkenende - who
supported the Iraq war - is a good thing.


Cheers, Michiel

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