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Ärende: FidoNews 30:49 [04/10]: General Articles
================================================
> suggestion
> ASAP!
Forgiven. Just this time and this time only (sales pitch). <g>
Sincerely,
Jon Justvig
-+- BBBS/LiI v4.10 Dada-1
+ Origin: Nightfall Ordain -- stepping.synchro.net:8080 (1:298/5)
== 39084 ================================================
Date : 17 Nov 10 09:27:34
From : Jon Justvig 1:298/5
To : Michiel Van Der Vlist
Subject : Votes received.
--------------------------------------------------------
AREA:FTSC_PUBLIC
> Hello Janis,
> On Tuesday November 16 2010 21:48, you wrote to Ross Cassell:
>> !! Note to Michiel: where do you draw the line if you allow this?
>> I'm curious if you've thought it through.
> I said I was going to sleep on it didn't I? Whan I wrote that, I
> already realised that without drawing lines things could get messy
> if recasting votes were allowed.
You said that but you must have a had a short nap. <g>
> In the meantime I have slept on it.
Bright and fitten like a kitten wearing mittens. <g>
> However... the request for a recast is withdrawn, so we can drop the
> issue.
Thank goodness. I wonder too if this was thought all the way through.
None-the-less it is resolved and we can go on with our merry lives.
Sincerely,
Jon Justvig
-+- BBBS/LiI v4.10 Dada-1
+ Origin: Nightfall Ordain -- stepping.synchro.net:8080 (1:298/5)
== 39104 ================================================
Date : 17 Nov 10 10:55:00
From : Bob Seaborn 1:140/12
To : Ross Cassell
Subject : Votes received.
--------------------------------------------------------
AREA:FTSC_PUBLIC
For what it's worth, I fully agree. Once a vote is posted, and
acknowledged, it MUST stand as posted. No second thoughts, no
changing!
> Hello Michiel!
>
> 16 Nov 10 22:36, you wrote to Bj-rn Felten:
>
>MV> Hmmm... I don't know. There is no provision in the rules for
>MV> changing a vote thais already cast. OTOH, the rules do not
>MV> forbid it either. I lean towards allowing it, but only if there
>NV> are no serious objectionsfrom the constituency. It will set a
>MV> precedent either way. So let me sleep on it.
>
> I protest in the name of protocol..
>
> If it is not in the rules, then it is not in the rules.. Changing
> the rules with a vote in progress is unheard of.
>
> I submit:
>
> Had the 2 no votes not been cast, Bjorn would not be pleading to
> change his, therefore his regret over his own vote, is a sad
> consequence.
>
> I neither cast and up or down vote for Alexey just to avoid being
> cast in some negative light, but held back such vote because he did
> come across as worrying more about nit picking others than anything
> else..
>
> Since Sweden is the cradle of Democracy, I fail to see why Bjorn is
> scornful of others making a concious decision.
>
> Do not allow revotes, what you gonna do, allow others to change
> their votes if they dont like the direction the outcome is heading?
>
> NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Now if you want, you can after the election, put in a rule or rule
> change, which I still would object to a revote, but you could
> change the format to allow a yes vote or a non-vote, then each
> candidate would have to score 50% or 50%+1 of all voters(*)
> counted. You of course would be making this suggestion to the full
> FTSC, where we would fight over it and not ever agree.
>
> (*) If 20 voters then 10 or 11 yes votes needed.
>
> However I could see someone pitching a fit over non-votes and
> wanting to change their vote, see what happens here..
>
> Dont tilt at windmills Michiel, be strong, I am here for you!
>
> Of course you could make the balloting secret, only publishing
> the results after the election concluded, that would be a viable
> option.
>
> I can see you balking at this, but you could publicly acknowledge
> in here... "RC such and such voted" But dont publish the actual
> vote, until it is all tallied and too late.
>
> Felten, you know better than this. You must know ride down
> downtown Stockholm, nude on a moose with a Wolf on the loose.
>
> ==
> Ross
> Fidonet Feeds Or Fidonet In Your Newsreader:
> http://www.easternstar.infoE-mail: ross(at)cassell(dot)us | Other
> Places: http://links.cassell.us
>
> We hoped and we got change!
>
> ... Liberals hold others to standards that they wont hold to
> themselves.--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20060121
> * Origin: The Eastern Star - Spartanburg, SC USA (1:123/456)
-+- GEcho/32 & IM 2.50
+ Origin: RC17 (email to rc17@fidonet.ca) (1:140/12)
== 39035 ================================================
Date : 17 Nov 10 11:08:56
From : Björn Felten 2:203/2
To : Jon Justvig
Subject : Votes received.
--------------------------------------------------------
AREA:FTSC_PUBLIC
JJ> I really agree with this. Seeing votes will also tell others to
JJ> vote for this person and not this person.
I totally agree. I was thinking wrongly. In the Swedish governmental
elections you can vote as many times you like, the votes are given a
time stamp and the latest vote counts. But that's a closed election,
in an open election like this, of course you should not be allowed to
change your vote once it's being passed.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I stand corrected. Please forget my
suggestion ASAP!
-+- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.12)
Gecko/20101027
+ Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)
== 39062 ================================================
Date : 17 Nov 10 12:52:06
From : Michiel van der Vlist 2:280/5555
To : Janis Kracht
Subject : Votes received.
--------------------------------------------------------
AREA:FTSC_PUBLIC
Hello Janis,
On Tuesday November 16 2010 21:48, you wrote to Ross Cassell:
JK> !! Note to Michiel: where do you draw the line if you allow
JK> this? I'm curious if you've thought it through.
I said I was going to sleep on it didn't I? When I wrote that, I
already realised that without drawing lines things could get messy
if recasting votes were allowed.
In the meantime I have slept on it.
However... the request for a recast is withdrawn, so we can drop
the issue.
Cheers, Michiel
-+- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
+ Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
== 39110 ================================================
Date : 17 Nov 10 13:49:30
From : Janis Kracht 1:261/38
To : Michiel van der Vlist
Subject : Votes received.
--------------------------------------------------------
AREA:FTSC_PUBLIC
Hi Michiel,
>> !! Note to Michiel: where do you draw the line if you allow this?
>> I'm curious if you've thought it through.
> I said I was going to sleep on it didn't I?
Yes, you did.. Why you felt you had to say such a thing says a lot
to me.
> However... the request for a recast is withdrawn, so we can drop
> the issue.
Take care,
Janis
-+- BBBS/LiI v4.01 Flag
+ Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
== 39085 ================================================
Date : 17 Nov 10 16:50:14
From : Michiel van der Vlist 2:280/5555
To : Ross Cassell
Subject : Voting rules
--------------------------------------------------------
AREA:FTSC_PUBLIC
Hello Ross,
On Tuesday November 16 2010 18:22, you wrote to me:
RC> Now if you want, you can after the election, put in a rule or
RC> rule change,
The rules are laid down in FTA-1000. I do not have the mandate to
change that all by my self.
RC> course would be making this suggestion to the full FTSC, where
RC> we would fight over it and not ever agree.
That's FidoNet for you. We can never reach consesnsus, so trying to
change the election rules wpould probably be the umpteenth exercise in
futility.
RC> Of course you could make the balloting secret, only publishing
RC> the results after the election concluded, that would be a viable
RC> option.
A secret ballot is fine if all the voters are in the same room, write
their vote on a voting slip, which are then thrown in a hat and
counted.
If they are not physically in the same room with the vote collector(s)
there is nothing that stops the vote collector from manipulating the
votes. It has happened. Even in R28.
Cheers, Michiel
-+- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
+ Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
== 39264 ================================================
Date : 18 Nov 10 16:46:26
From : Roger Nelson 1:3828/7
To : Michiel van der Vlist
Subject : Votes received.
--------------------------------------------------------
AREA:FTSC_PUBLIC
On Tue 2010-Nov-16 22:36, Michiel van der Vlist (2:2/20) wrote to
Björn Felten:
MvdV> Hello Björn,
MvdV> On Tuesday November 16 2010 14:23, you wrote to me:
BF> Dear Mr. Voting Admin, I only voted for the two persons that
BF> I know from way back, but please accept my alternate vote:
MvdV> Hmmm... I don't know. There is no provision in the rules
MvdV> for changing a vote thais already cast. OTOH, the rules do not
MvdV> forbid it either. I lean towards allowing it, but only if there
MvdV> are no serious objections from the constituency. It will set a
MvdV> precedent either way. So let me sleep on it.
I wouldn't. Once a vote is cast, it is done. If you allow this you
will be opening Pandora's Box.
Regards,
Roger
-+- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
+ Origin: NCS BBS - Houma, LA - (1:3828/7)
== 39267 ================================================
Date : 18 Nov 10 21:04:09
From : mark lewis 1:3634/12
To : Michiel van der Vlist
Subject : Votes received.
--------------------------------------------------------
AREA:FTSC_PUBLIC
BF> Dear Mr. Voting Admin, I only voted for the two persons that
BF> I know from way back, but please accept my alternate vote:
MvdV> Hmmm... I don't know. There is no provision in the rules for
MvdV> changing a vote thais already cast. OTOH, the rules do not
MvdV> forbid it either. I lean towards allowing it, but only if there
MvdV> are no serious objections from the constituency. It will set a
MvdV> precedent either way. So let me sleep on it.
RN> I wouldn't. Once a vote is cast, it is done. If you allow this
RN> you will be opening Pandora's Box.
i have to agree... it has never been done before and it is not allowed
in any other voting procedures that i'm aware of... if there is a
procedure for a revote, then that would possibly come into play
depending on the circumstances...
one might also take a look at history and look at the negative votes
i got for my actions during the campanging portion of the last
election process ;)
)\/(ark
+ Origin: (1:3634/12)
==== end ====
With thanks to Kees van Eeten for opening his archive.
¸ Michiel van der Vlist, all rights reserved.
Permission to publish in the FIDONEWS file echo, the FIDONEWS dis-
cussion echo and the FNEWS_PUBLISH echo as originating from 2:2/2.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ruling on the protests in the FTSC electeion
By Michiel van der Vlist, Election coordinator 2:2/20
A protest was filed by three parties. One by RC17, Bob Seaborn
and one by ZC1, Janis Kracht and one by Ross Cassel RC18.
An attempt at mediation by Scott Little has failed for lack of
respons from RC14 and RC17.
Regarding the protest filed by Bob Seaborn, RC17:
BS> Is it my fault that that MY keyboard and video doees not
BS> support non-english characters?
1) The sysop is responsible for what his system injects into
the network. So if this presumed non-support of those
characters results in errors, then yes, the sysop is responsible.
2) Although it is not in the ASCII character set, characters with
a diaresis /are/ part of the English characters set, notably
in some English names: Emily Bront‰, No‰l Coward and the
constellation of Boötes. The fact that the diaresis is usually
omitted in US English does not change the fact that the o with
diaresis IS part of the character set used in English.
BS> Furthermore, after thinking about it, I do note that the rules of
BS> this echo, as posted by yourself dated 19 November 2013 states
BS> that the language of the echo is English:
3) The fact that the language for discussion is English, does not
exclude the use of names that are not English. If it were, names
as Delahaye (French) and Dossche (Dutch) would also have to be
banned.
4) The use of non ASCII characters in messages is a Fidonet standard
laid down in FTS-5003. While it is understandable that sysops
who have no use for other languages than US English have not
installed translation tables for non-ASCII character sets, this
can never be used as an excuse for a mangled vote.
5) The claim that the name of the candidate on the form was changed
to "Bjerk" by the software and the software alone, has no credi-
bility. The vertical lines were all in place. This was deliberate.
Regarding the protest by Ross Cassel RC18:
His own vote was processed without problems and to his staisfaction
he has little reason to complain.
He has however provided some input on the votes of the two RCs that
cast a vote for "Bjerk" and so have some others.
Regarding the use of names of candidates not exactly as they are in
the nodelist:
1) It is common practise that sysops do not always use the exact name
as nodelisted in their messages. Some use short forms like "Bob"
for "Robert", some use "middle names". Like Robert "Jame" Clay.
2) It has been custom to list the candidates with the names they
present in their own messages or the name as posted by the nomi-
nator. The name may or may not be exactly the same as that in the
nodelist. The sysop listed as RJ Clay has been on the list of
candidates as Robert "Jame" Clay since 2011. No one ever made an
issue out of that.
Regarding identifying the candidate by the node number:
1) We vote for people, not numbers. The node number is just there so
that everyone can quickly check if the candidate fulfills the
requirement of being the sysop of a nodelisted system.
It may also help when there are two candidates with the same or
a similar name.
"The intentions of the voter were clear":
1) Yes, there is little doubt that Bob Seaborn intended to cast a "no"
vote for Björn Felten. But when we start going by intentions, there
is also little doubt that he intended to do more than that. He
intended to add an insult. This was not just a typo, or replacing a
non ASCII character with something the software could handle like
"oe" or "o". This was a deliberate name change with the intent to
insult. Such actions should have consequences.
"The rules are not clear"
1) The instructions for the voters were clear enough: Take the form
and put crosses in the "yes" or "no" spots. It did not say "and
--- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
* Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)
|