Text 26184, 163 rader
Skriven 2015-07-23 12:39:00 av Bill McGarrity (18376.2fidonews)
  Kommentar till text 26179 av Lee Lofaso (2:203/2)
Ärende: Re: Both Are Covered
============================
-=> Lee Lofaso wrote to Bill McGarrity <=-

Hiya Lee...

 LL>>> This exchange sheds a bit of light on the subject -

 LL>>>                   -=-=-=-=-=-

 LL>> I do not foresee any new policy documents being written,
 LL>> passed and ratified anytime soon.  Do you?

 BM> I do not have a crystal ball to foretell the future.  One never knows from
 BM> one day to the next.

 LL> It was hot yesterday.  It is hot today.  It will be hot tomorrow.
 LL> I know this for a fact.  And I do not even need a crystal ball to
 LL> tell me that.

Can you ell me the right 6 #'s to this week's PowerBall drawing then?

 LL>>> That is what I get from reading P4 and following this thread.
 LL>>> You and others have made some valid points, and I do not want to
 LL>>> diminish anything anybody has said or contributed.

 LL>>> Perhaps an echomail-specific document should be written, passed
 LL>>> and ratified.  Is one needed?  My answer would be "Yes" - if there
 LL>>> were more participants or if fidonet was a growing network.  But
 LL>>> as it is now, it may be better to do with what exists today.

 BM>> Lee, your statement above just took your arguemnt and sent it
 BM> straight to
 BM>> the shitter.

 LL>> What makes you think that?

 BM> Because you said one should be written which opens the debate why.

 LL> I said "perhaps" - and then "should".  Two qualifiers.  With no
 LL> definitive answer.

True, but the intent (stole that one from you) was still there for one to be
adopted.. 

 BM> My contention is if it needs to be written, then something is missing from
 BM> P4 when it comes to echomail. Being "content" was never mentioned in 9.9,
 BM> one could presume this was the detail that's been missing.

 LL> Again, P4 includes a "catch-all" - the two cardinal rules.

This is true.... but tell me something... if I'm sending 200 megs of files
through your system daily without asking... would that be grounds or are you
getting easily annoyed?

 BM>> If indeed an echomail-specific document is needed then certain
 BM>> aspects of P4 don't cover echomail and being nothing mentions content
 BM> in
 BM>> 9.9, that's one of the areas that need to be deifined...

 LL>> Thats a lot of ifs.  Which one is it?

 BM> Just one if...

 LL> A very big if.

Still just one... 

 LL>> I am not being silly.  P4 was written, passed and ratified
 LL>> in 1989 by sysops who were part of the network at that time.
 LL>> Things change.  People move on.  Technology changes.  Issues
 LL>> that were considered important then are no longer considered
 LL>> important today.  Other non-issues then are now top issues
 LL>> today.

 LL>> But the most important difference between then and
 LL>> now is the number of non-sysop participants.  Back then
 LL>> non-sysop participants predominated the world of fidonet.
 LL>> Today, almost all the participants in fidonet are sysops.

 LL>> Ask yourself this one simple question -

 LL>> How many non-sysop participants are using your board to
 LL>> send/receive messages?  Is your board even open for non-sysops
 LL>> to do that?

 BM> I have 8-9 dedicated callers.

 LL> That is more than most sysops can claim in today's world.
 LL> Would have been an abysmal number years ago, but times have
 LL> changed ...

True... I'm surprised I even have that many.  Back in the 90's I'd get that
many calls in an hour.

 LL>> Oops.  That was two questions.  I never was good in math.

 LL>> You say content does not matter.
 LL>> Who do you think provides the content?
 LL>> And you wonder why Fidonet is dyihg.

 BM> We all do... but the facts are it's not important who provides the content
 BM> in the realm of our discussion.

 LL> Who provides the content is every bit as important as what
 LL> that content is or might be.

Why? There is no distinction in P4 as to who's content. Only restrictions are
areas dedicated to nodelisted sysops.  Then again, that deals with z1 and isput
there for a reason.

 LL>> An airline is not going to allow a pilot to fly a passenger
 LL>> airplane loaded with no passengers, regardless of how many
 LL>> destinations that airplane can have.  The idea is nonsensical.

 BM> Hey, that may indeed spark interest in flying again... the SUPER
 LL> upgrade...
 BM> 1st class to Golden class... you get to fly the plane as well as open bar!

 LL> I'll take the bus.  Or use my thumb.  They don't make
 LL> fly drives, you know.

You afraid if I'm flying the plane?? I always land on three points... :)

 LL>> Fidonet is about communication.  People communicating with
 LL>> other people.  Just as airplanes do not fly themselves, neither
 LL>> does fidonet.  It takes people to communicate.  And what do
 LL>> people communicate?  Content.

 BM> Did I ever disagree with you on that?  The issue is, right now P4 does not
 BM> cover content... only proper transmission over the network. Not having an
 BM> echomail policy defining content maybe a good thing... afterall, free
 BM> speech.

 LL> Fidonet does cover content, just not in the way you are thinking.
 LL> Free speech is not an absolute, but a relative right, as there are
 LL> limits to everything.  That's right.  There are no absolutes.  Not
 LL> in this world, nor the next (if there is one).

Agreed, in the real world you're correct and for the sake of humanity, it
should be here as well, but until content is included in a document... sorry
Charlie.

 LL> Why else would the annoyed/annoying clauses be included in P4
 LL> if not for content?  That is the "catch-all".

I've already explained that to you with regard to transmission. 



--

Bill

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