Text 29414, 465 rader
Skriven 2015-12-23 11:10:18 av mark lewis (1:3634/12.73)
Kommentar till text 29372 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Rules of Echomail
=========================
23 Dec 15 11:24, you wrote to Joe Delahaye:
MV>>> Founding an echo does not create a mandate. At best it files a claim
MV>>> based on "squaters right". Such a claim is no moere than just a
MV>>> claim. More is needed to promote it to a mandate. Among other things
MV>>> the honouring of the claim by either a recognised authority or the
MV>>> fiat of all parties involved.
JD>> It does indeed give the founder a mandate. If said echo is
JD>> promulgated throughout Fidnet, that is all that is needed.
MV> So you say. Saying it is so, does not make it so hwoever.
saying it is not so does not make it not so, either...
MV> If you can't back it up with a quote from some recognised document it
MV> is just your personal opinion, nothing more.
if you can't back up the opposite side with a quote from some recognized
document it is just your personal opinion, too... it reminds me of the
principle for the ordinary citizen which states "everything which is not
forbidden is allowed" while the converse "everything which is not allowed is
forbidden" is applied to those in authority...
MV>>> "Squaters right" has not been a recognised legal mechanism in this
MV>>> part of the world for ages. The time that one could plant a flag and
MV>>> say "this land is mine" has been hsitory for at least half a
MV>>> millenium in this part of the world.
JD>> No squatter. You cannot compare a law about land rights, with the
JD>> written word sent over the ethernet.
MV> Of course I can. I just did.
apples and oranges...
[...]
JD>> I will simply say that in that case, there were two echos with the
JD>> same name.
MV> Two echos with the same name? That is a situation that the echolist was
MV> supposed to prevent.
yes and no... back in at least 1987 the IMAGES (shortened from "electric
images"), REVIEWS and FILM all had the same subject matter... eventually FILM
was the main one and the others dropped... numerous music related areas also
had similar subject matter and those eventually merged or got dropped down to
one... it was more of a combination of duplicate area names as well as
duplicate subject matter that brought the echolist to life... here's the first
article (fido0405) i can find related to the echolist...
[quote]
Fidonews Page 4 2 Feb 1987
Blake Eiseman
Genesis OPUS BBS
Miami, FL Node 135/3
(305) 895-2998
ATTENTION ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE
COORDINATORS
EchoMail has grown to become one of the most diverse, useful,
and interesting utilities available to Fido SysOps today. You
all know what it does.. Its ability to allow multiple BBSes to
share a common discussion board allows SysOps unlimited new
ideas and prospects.
EchoMail has grown beyond all expectations. Since its creation,
local and nation conferences have come to life all around the
world in virtually every net of the Fido Network.
With this unexpected surge of growth, however, comes mass chaos
and confusion as to the EchoMail conferences that exist. With
that, I get to the reason for which I have written this article.
I would like to propose "The Official EchoMail Conference List"
in which would be listed all existing EchoMail conferences, both
on a local, and national scale. I will process this list, and
send copies to major nodes, to be downloaded accordingly. This
list will not be updated on a regular basis, rather whenever
enough additions or deletions are present to require a new
version.
In order to make this list a reality, I need the help of all
EchoMail conference coordinators. Please send a message to
Genesis OPUS BBS, in the nodelist under 135/3, containing the
following information:
- Conference Name
- Coordinator's Name
- All participating Nodes
(Name and Node #)
- A brief description of the topic available
on the conference.
If you do not send this message, your conference will not appear
in the list. It is up to you to get this message in on time.
I cannot predict an accurate date of release, however, look for
it about 1 month after this article appears in FidoNews.
Thank you for your support.
Blake Eiseman
[/quote]
the first echolist (0101) was published 1987 Jan 13... you can see the snooze
version of it in fido0410.nws... then there's this article in fido0508.nws...
[quote]
EchoList: Past, Present, Future.
I wrote this article in able to get the story straight regarding
the sad shape the EchoList has deteriorated to! Along with some
praise there have been many flames. I hope this article will
explain it all.
Many moons ago (April 1986) I became a Fido Sysop. Much thanks go
to Gee Wong for alot of hand holding and assistance when I
started up. I was a long time user of a couple of Fido BBS and
thus I knew the terrain of FidoNet. I had read all the back
issues of FidoNews before becoming a sysop so not much was new.
Little did I know this was going to be the dawn of EchoMail!
There were only a handful of conferences. The ones I recall were
SYSOP, TECH and MAGICK. Believe it or not you could count the
number of conferences on both hands! It didn't take long before
conferences were springing up everywhere.
The growth was so rapid that nobody knew how many nor what type
of conferences existed. I wanted to know! So I took it upon
myself to collect data about what conferences existed and share
it with whomever was interested. In the summer of '86 I worked
out a draft and I then begged for information but almost nothing
came. I then put Plan B into action. If the data won't come to me
well I'll have to go to the data! I spent many months collecting
echomail conference information from any and every source.
I published that first official list in Jan '87 and then EchoList
became recognized as a place to list and find conferences. There
were still other sources for echomail information, but EchoList
was the only publication of its kind.
Well Plan B worked but this fame had its price, now not only did
I scan many echos collecting data to update the EchoList I was
getting updates from moderators as well and even would be
moderators. The burden was getting to heavy and delays started to
occur. I asked for assistance and got some replies. I attempted
to deligate some tasks to aid in automation but but I guess my
selection of assistants was poor because after they would get the
spcification of what I needed they would fade away. I was
attempting to off load my work to others and it wasn't working.
This additional fustration slowed me down even more.
The flames stared rolling in about how out of date EchoList was
so I got frantic and rushed to get an update done. I did it but
it burned me out. This was the June '87 issue and I was about to
throw in the towel and pull the plug on the PC for good. Yes the
EchoList was bigger and better than previous versions but that
also meant big and better flames as well :-) Then guess what
happens... IFNA presents an award to me at the Aug '87 Fido
convention. Well the recogniztion cheered me up a bit and I went
back to the old habbits of applying updates from moderators and
other sysops which wanted their net listed as well as scanning
the echos for updates and everything else! Well I should have
taken a fresh new direction but I didn't....
I got a list published in Dec '87 but it didn't have time to
apply all the updates. I thought some updates would be better
than none. Well not everybody agreed :-( After this issue and one
more failure in recruiting some help I saw it was time for me to
get things done. I just had to automated this beast it's time was
long overdue!
I talked to a few sysops and kicked around a few ideas. I'm
finally (sigh of relief) going to learn from my mistakes :-) In
the past I wanted everthing listed. I don't know why, just call
me crazy (and maybe a perfectionist?). I had some sort of idea
(carried from the old days) that I had to collect the data
because not everybody would send it to me. If I did get updates
well that would be gravy. As Echomail Scribe I can't do it all,
I'm only a human not a computer. What this means is rather than
put all the responsibility at the top we need to push it down to
the "moderators". What this means is that if the moderator really
wants to support the conference they will need to send in an
update at least once a month. If this is not done the conference
will not be listed. This way I won't be banging my head against
the wall doing all the work. You (the moderators) of course will
get a share some of thoese flames :-)
A deadline will be fixed at a later date for monthly updates.
With this policy we will no longer have listings carried over
from list to list. That means no outdated garbage! AMEN (the
number one complaint). I am working on the specification for the
format of an EchoList update message. That should appear shortly.
I and a couple of sysops are currently working on the programs
that will be used. Everything will be automatic! At this time I
would like Echomail moderators who currently produce regional or
net conference lists to contact me. We might as well share these
utilities so we can all benifiet. I know the format of these
reagional/net lists are different but I am certain we can work
something out.
Of course this new method is radical if not revolutionary but I
think it's time has come. If the conference moderators can't take
the time to send information well there is nothing I can do about
it. If the topic is that important I'm certain somebody will be
responsible enough to volunteer to be the moderator.
All this brings us to a sticky point. What about all those
conferences that don't have moderators? Well somebody will have
to step forward or they won't be listed it is as simple as that.
You may be wondering about how to get conferences which don't
exist listed. I mean the "if anybody wants to start an echo about
ABC contact me" listings... I must frankly say, I don't know what
I'm going to do about that. They might be listed or there might
be a seperate "wish list" produced. I have to think about this
one and I welcome your comments.
The future? Well I have many things I would like to see happen.
For example one of the most frequently asked questions I get is
where can I link into XYZ conference? Well I just refer them to
the moderator. What I would like to see is a utility like
megalist that can run online and assist in such queries, as well
as topic searches. Maybe even a program that would be a server to
do this via netmail! As well, I would like to draw maps of the
topology for a conference and even compute routing delivery
times. I realize there are many other things people would want
and of course I can't do it all so I want to pulish a database
version of the list which can be used by anybody's utilities.
Well alot of water has passed under the bridge both good and bad.
I hope this story has given you insight into the problems I've
had. With this new vision I hope I can count on your assistance
and support! It isn't going to be easy. I'm certain we'll have
some growing pains, but in the end we will have something that
serves the network as a whole. United we're echomail, devied
we're just netmail. Keep an eye out for the EchoList update
message format coming soon.
[/quote]
MV> So either we have been lied to regarding the echolist, or they were
MV> not two echos with the same name.
you are much too strict with your terminology... if the above article doesn't
answer your question about why the echolist was created, this next one
published in fido0533.nws by the echolist's second incarnation's maintainer may
provide the answer you seek...
[quote]
Mike Fuchs
1:1/201
EchoList - The EchoMail Conference List
(It's bAAAAaaaack...)
Ever wonder what all those EchoMail conferences are about?
Ever wonder if there was already a conference on some
specific topic? Well that's why the EchoList was originally
created. And that's why I've resurrected it.
For those of you who might not be familiar with it, a little
history...
The EchoList is an informal listing of EchoMail conferences,
as described by each conference's moderator. It is now a
monthly publication which attempts to document certain
interesting information about EchoMail Conferences;
"interesting" to people who would like to participate,
interesting to EchoMail Coordinators and those who route the
conference traffic, and potentially interesting to the
Conference Moderator. The base product of the EchoList
database is the detailed Conference listing. But, as needs
are identified which can be satisfied with the available
information, additional reports and analyses can be
developed.
The EchoList was originated by Thomas Kenny, who maintained
it as a text file completely manually. It was a time
consuming effort, and was updated on a very sporadic and
infrequent basis. The last edition published this way was
December 1987.
Several people (myself included) were working with Thomas on
developing ways to automate the maintenance, and provide a
structured database that could be used for things other than
a simple conference listing. As a result, he assembled a
specification for submitting messages that would be used for
updating the list. Unfortunately, Thomas decided to drop
out of FidoNet before any of the code was completed. He
continues to have my gratitude for all he put in to getting
the EchoList as far as he did.
Since I was interested (for purely personal desire) in
having an EchoList, I picked-up that last 1987 EchoList,
built an R:base database and application, and keyed the
whole thing in. The result is a semi-automated update
application, and some nice report generation facilities.
There's a lot more to be done. It's still a VERY labor-
intensive task. But, I'm happy to say I've been able to
publish all updates received for the last 3 months on-time.
Now, I'm going to try and ruin that by inviting more
updates...
HISTORY LESSON OVER...
That's why I wrote this article. It has been pointed out to
me that there are a lot of people who don't realize the
EchoList is available. Most importantly, there are a lot of
Conference Moderators who don't know, and as a result their
conferences aren't in, or will soon be dropped from, that
list.
You see, one of things that seems to be widely agreed upon
is that, in order to be really useful, an EchoList needs
some control criteria. Hating bureaucracy as I do, I've
only implemented two (at this point). First, in order to be
listed, a conference must have a responsible party to whom
questions can be directed; that person is the Moderator.
Second, since reference information is only valuable if it's
up-to-date, an EchoList conference entry must be updated via
message to me on a regular basis.
So there's the reason for the article. A number of
conferences have already been dropped because they had no
moderator identified. (How anybody's supposed to join a
conference when there's no one identified to contact, I'll
never know, but so be it.) The other thing is that most of
the entries' last-update dates are VERY old. Starting with
this next EchoList, I will start enforcing a purge criteria.
An awful lot of conferences will be dropped as a result.
Many are dead wood anyway. But there are many such
conferences I know are alive and well, and I hope this
article gets the message to those moderators. If you
frequent a conference important to you, how about letting
the moderator know about the EchoList?
Oh yeah, I lied. There is one more control, but it is for
the Moderators themselves. A Moderator can submit an entry
that becomes password protected. From then-on, the
moderator has some feeling of control over the information
listed in the EchoList for their conference.
SO, HOW DO YOU UPDATE THE ECHOLIST?
There are two ARC files that I publish. One is the EchoList
itself--which I'll get back to. The other is ELISTMOD.ARC.
It is essential that you get a copy of this file, as it
contains detailed instructions on the update message format
and contents. This article is going to be too long as it
is, so I can't put the whole thing here. Suffice it to say,
it's a fairly simple, but strictly structured, message
format that has to be NetMailed to me at 1:1/201.
The other file I referred-to is ELISTnnn.ARC, where nnn is
the edition. The August 1, 1988 edition is X03, and it
contains the basic, detailed Conference list, and a few
ancillary cross-reference listings. I ship both of these
files, when updated, to each of the Regional EchoMail
Coordinators in the U.S., plus the Zone Gates for Zones 2,
3, and 7 (in hopes they will pass them along). I have no
idea whether any of these people pass them along, make them
available for download, or what. I just hope they do. If
you can't find them locally, you can use the "magic" file
names (specify them without a period or file extension):
ECHOMOD - to get the latest EchoList update instructions,
ECHOLIST - to get the latest EchoList,
in a SEAdog or WaZoo file request to 1:1/201. They are also
first-time-user downloadable from my BBS at (201)506-0472.
WHAT IS A MODERATOR?
I needed to establish some definitions for the EchoList, so
these are MY definitions and others' may vary. Critical to
the identification of an EchoMail conference is the
identification of its Moderator. A Moderator is the person
who defines a Conference, and keeps it on track; making sure
message content is within reasonable bounds of the topic for
which the conference exists. A Moderator should also set
the base rules of the conference and cut off abuses of the
media when they occur. IF A CONFERENCE HAS NO MODERATOR, IT
WILL NOT BE LISTED IN THE ECHOLIST. If you know of a
conference which you feel is important to the community and
it doesn't have a moderator I seriously suggest you consider
the job. Basically, then, the Moderator "owns" the
CONFERENCE.
This is specifically contrasted with ECHOMAIL COORDINATORS.
A dedicated group of volunteers have identified themselves
as willing to expedite distribution of national EchoMail
conferences. There is (identified at the beginning of the
NodeList) a National EchoMail Coordinator, and one Regional
EchoMail Coordinator for each FidoNet Region. These people
run the National EchoMail Backbone, and facilitate timely
and accurate distribution of the bigger conferences in the
U.S. They "own" that particular distribution channel, not
the Conferences themselves.
There are also nodes who can afford to aggregate a large
number of Conferences and facilitate distribution. They are
frequently referred to as EchoMail Hubs, though it's a
fairly unofficial title, I think.
SO WHAT'S IN IT?
I don't want to make this article too long, but as a brief
overview:
The minimum information required for an EchoList entry
includes: The Symbolic Area Name used by the conference, A
Title or brief descriptive phrase for the conference, the
Moderator's Name and the Moderator's Node Number. Certain
Moderators do not want to publicize the AREA: name, and the
ability to supress the display of the Area Name in the
EchoList is provided. Perhaps the best way to show all the
various fields in the EchoList is to show the format for
submitting additions and updates, so an EchoList update
message would be...
To: ECHOLIST
At: 1:1/201
Subject: MODerator UPDate
or MODerator DELete
or COORdinator UPDate
or PARTicipant UPDate
AREAname <symbolic area name> </NOshow>
TITLe <brief area title for sorting>
DESCription <A full description of the conference,
audience, topics, ...>
MODerator <moderator name>, <moderator node>
PASSword <current password>, <new password>
TOTalnodes <number of nodes carrying this conference>
VOLume <number of messages>/<MONth or DAY or WEEK>
RESTrictions </SYSop> </MOD-apvl> </MEMber>
DISTribution <areas or distribution vehicles of note>
GATEway <gateways to other zones & networks crossed
by the conference>
SEENby <node list>
PATH <node list>
Please don't submit an update based solely on this article,
as there's a lot more documentation in ELISTMOD.ARC. I just
wanted to give you a flavor for what's there. Constructive
criticism, advice, and other butting-in is ALWAYS welcome.
Enjoy,
And have fun with it!
- Mike Fuchs, 1:1/201
[/quote]
)\/(ark
"So let me ask you a question about this brave new world of yours. When you've
killed all the bad guys, and when it's all perfect, and just and fair, and when
you have finally got it exactly the way you want it, what are you going to do
with the people like you? The trouble makers. How are you going to protect your
glorious revolution from the next one?" - The twelfth Doctor
... If only Karen Carpenter had eaten the sandwich that Mama Cass choked on.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
|