Text 6680, 172 rader
Skriven 2013-11-25 11:27:28 av Roy Witt (1:387/22)
   Kommentar till text 6650 av Alexey Vissarionov (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Modern English                      was: language
=========================================================
01 May 30 15:27, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Alexey Vissarionov:

 AV>>>> Please write in English,

 BF>>> Naïve *is* English.

 AV>> Ask native speakers...

He's wrong, of course. Naive is English, Naïve is French. (See below)

 MvdV> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/naive

 AV>>>> without any characters from the 0x80...0xFF range.

 BF>>> Why?

 MvdV> Why indeed...

Because these are not modern English letters in the modern 26
character English alphbet and havn't been for a few hundred years.

 AV>> The working language of this echoarea is English,

 MvdV> Yes.

He got that right, but the rest of it is pure bullshit.

 MvdV> But that does not mean that only English names are allowed.

English spelling is required in text used to communicate, but an exception
is in order of spelling names, if they can make it through the many links
that handle that message can reproduce. If not, then we see the jumbled
mess that can be seen here as a shining example of how not to spell a
Svede name such as Bjorn's. And, if he wasn't such a jerk, he would do
that to save the amount of BS that has been wasted in arguments for or
against. Therefore, he has earned his nickname.

 MvdV> If we would allow only English names, we would have to ban Janis
 MvdV> Kracht en Joe Delahaye. "Kracht" is Dutch and translates to "Force"
 MvdV> in English.

What he's saying is that some immigrants decided to translate there
surnames to English or retain the original spelling or a reasonable
facsimile. No less, no more. We have a John Force in America (he's famous)
and we have a Janis Kracht. OTH, my ancestors were from Prussia, aka
Germany today, near today's Polish border. But, the surname is also used
in England, and the spelling is identical to the German version.

 MvdV>  "Delahaye" is French and translates to "Fromthehague". So they
 MvdV> would have to write as "Janis Force" and "Joe Fromthehague".

Not really, as both spellings are used in English as well. Joe's ancestors
or his parents decided not to change the name and continued the spelling
when they immigrated to the US.

 MvdV> Of course we don't ask them to do that. Just as we do not ask you
 MvdV> to change your name to "Alex".

Although Alex would be acceptable in English, as it represents a shortened
version of your first name. Sometimes it is very awkward to use complete
first names and so we shorten them for convenience in writing as well as
speaking. Just as it is unusual to find a person who spells his name such
as Michiel, when Michael is the English norm...and quite often Michael is
shortened to Mike for the convenience of writing and speaking it.

 AV>> and all 26 capital and 26 small letters of English alphabet reside
 AV>> in the 0x40...0x7F range.

 MvdV> The English alphabet is larger than that.

Wrong. In the orthography of Modern English, thorn, eth, wynn, yogh  ash
(‘), and ethel (o) (most of these are hard to reproduce in a FTN reader)
are obsolete and have been since Old English evolved into Modern English,
circa 1011-1612 AD..

Latin borrowings reintroduced homographs of ash and ethel into Middle
English and Early Modern English, though they are not considered to be the
same letters but rather ligatures, and in any case are somewhat old
fashioned.

Thorn and eth were both replaced by th, though thorn continued in
existence for some time, its lowercase form gradually becoming graphically
indistinguishable from the minuscule y in most handwriting. Y for th can
still be seen in pseudo-archaisms such as "Ye Olde Booke Shoppe".

Wynn disappeared from English around the 14th century when it was
supplanted by uu, which ultimately developed into the modern w.

Yogh disappeared around the 15th century and was typically replaced by gh.

The letters u and j, as distinct from v and i, were introduced in the 16th
century, and w assumed the status of an independent letter, so that the
English alphabet is now considered to consist of the following 26 letters:

These are the Majuscule form, aka upper case or Caps:

    A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

And these are the Minuscule form, aka lower case or small letters:

    a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z

There are no diacritic letters in the Modern English alphbet. Although a
few exceptions are made when a word is borrowed from another language as
loan-words, such as na‹ve and fa‡ade.

In time, these characters disappear and they become normal characters from
the normal 26 characters as listed above.

 MvdV> Björn already pointed out the currency sign for the Pound
 MvdV> Sterling: £. x9C in CP850, xA3 in Latin 1 and codepoint U+00A3 in
 MvdV> Unicode.

As can be seen, it doesn't appear to translate as easily as he makes it
seem. The English Pound Sterling sign œ (0x8C) doesn't appear on any
QWERTY keyboard, but it can be found in a Windows character map of DOS
characters as used in America. The same is also true of the American
currency symbol, although it is found on a QWERTY American keyboard.

 MvdV> Characters with a diaresis ARE used in English."Naïve" was already
 MvdV> mentioned.

Since Na‹ve (0x8B) is a borrowed French word, it can be spelled both ways
and be correct.  In English, the diaresis is usually dropped and a regular
i (0x69) is used.

 MvdV> It is often written as "naive" in US English, but that
 MvdV> does not mean the version with the i with diaresis is incorrect.

But it does indicate that someone is using the borrowed word to indicate
that it is borrowed from the French and doesn't know the difference.
However it is spelled, the meaning remains the same.

 MvdV> English also allows the diaresis in names. Noël Coward was already
 MvdV> mentioned. I add Emily Brontë.

 MvdV> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No%C3%ABl_Coward
 MvdV> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Bront%C3%AB

And if you were to look up those names in any English Encyclopedia without
the diaresis, you would find that the same person is recorded.

 MvdV> And for the o diareses:

 MvdV> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo%C3%C6tes

Not much there to give it any authority.

An acute, grave or diaeresis may also be placed over an 'e' at the end of
a word to indicate that it is not silent, as in saké. However, these
devices are often not used even where they would serve to alleviate some
degree of confusion.

 MvdV> Sidenote: All those pages on wikipedia are encoded in UTF-8

The only way to use both foriegn and English languages with the characters
not 'bleeped' out, such as the ö in Bjorn as it is usually found here ...
else, there would be a grave misspelling of Björn as in: Bjoern or Björn
... which translates to Bjerk on some monitors, when the translation table
used to display Bjorn isn't using a Western European, extra letter
alphabet table...


         R\%/itt - K5RXT

 Reminder: "On Friday September 8th 2006, Mike Godwin's 16 year experiment
 was concluded and Godwin's Law was officially repealed by a MAJORITY vote
 among millions of individuals." http://repealgodwin.tripod.com/

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