Text 3940, 255 rader
Skriven 2009-03-31 13:46:42 av Ed Hulett (1:123/789.0)
   Kommentar till text 3931 av Ross Sauer (1:123/789.0)
Ärende: Ed must ignore this
===========================
Ross Sauer -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 RS> "Ed Hulett -> Ross Sauer" <1:123/789.0> wrote in
 RS> news:8016$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

 RS>>>>>>> Oh?

 RS>>>>>>> Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-62

 RS>>>>>>> [I]f any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse
 EH>>>>   another,and EH>>   the first RS> give her consent, and if he
 EH>>   espouse EH>>   the second, and EH>>   they are virgins, and RS> have
 EH>>   vowed to no EH>>   other man, then is he EH>>   justified; he cannot
 EH>>   commit EH>>>> adultery
 RS>>>>>>> for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery
 EH>>>>   with EH>>   that that RS> belongeth unto him and to no one
 EH>>   else. And EH>>   if he have EH>>   ten virgins given RS> unto him by
 EH>>   this law, he EH>>   cannot commit EH>>   adultery, for they belong
 EH>>   to him, RS> and they EH>>   are given unto him; EH>>   therefore is
 EH>>   he justified.

 EH>>>>>> I already said that it is in the D&C.

 RS>>>>> Why was it included in the Doctrine and Covenants in the first
 EH>>>>   place? RS> Obvious answer: To make it official that a guy
 EH>>   could have EH>>   multiple wives.

 EH>>>> The D&C is a collection of revelations given to Joseph Smith
 EH>>   during EH>> his lifetime. Section 132 is the revelation which began
 EH>>   the practice EH>> of polygamy.

 RS>>> "Revelations" are delusions.
 RS>>> "God talks to me..." Yibble yibble yibble...

 RS>>> Or flat-out lies.

 EH>> That's your opinion.

 RS> No, those are facts.

No, it is your opinion. You have nothing to back up your opinion as fact.

 RS> If you see someone on the street and he says to you "God has spoke to me
 RS> and...(fill in the blank)," you'd think the guy is either nuts, or lying.

You might.

 RS> So why should Joseph Smith be any different?

Until you prove he didn't get divine revelation, you have nothing.

 RS> Just because he founded your religion?
 RS> What makes his lies or delusions any different from L. Ron Hubbard?

Here you go with your opinion again.

 RS> What about Mohammed?

He didn't talk to Yhwh, he talked to some gad named Allah.

 RS> Yeshua bar Joseph? (Jesus)

What about Him?

 EH>>>>>> At the end of the D&C is the Manifesto given by Wilford
 EH>>>>   Woodruff that EH>> ended the practice of polygamy in The
 EH>>   Church of EH>>   Jesus Christ of Latter EH>> Day Saints.

 RS>>>>> Why did he end the official Doctrine?

 EH>>>> Because if the practice had not ended the US government would
 EH>>   have EH>> confiscated all the property of the Church. Wilford
 EH>>   Woodruff went in EH>> prayer to the Lord and received revelation to
 EH>>   end the practice.

 RS>>> So I guess your big guy in the sky wasn't so powerful after all.

 EH>> What on earth are you talking about?

 RS> You mean the US government is more powerful than your deity?

What are you talking about?

Article of Faith #12; "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents,
rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

 RS>>> And this Woodruff guy simply made up his mind not to fight the
 RS>>> government, he didn't need all this prayer crapola.

 EH>> And here we have more opinion from you.

 RS> More like fact.

You are confused. You are not the arbiter of what is and what isn't fact. You
have your opinions and try to force them on others.

 RS> This Woodruff guy saw that fighting the US government at that time was a
 RS> lost cause, so he caved in.

He was the 4th president of the Church. He went in prayer to the Lord and it
was revealed to him that polygamy must end.

 RS>>>>> Obvious answer: Political pressure. The US got off the
 EH>>   Mormons' EH>>   ass when RS> they dumped the polygamy.

 EH>>>> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only
 EH>>   Church to EH>> have a law passed in Congress that would have forced
 EH>>   the Church to EH>> disband and all properties be confiscated by the
 EH>>   government if they EH>> did not stop a practice only a small number
 EH>>   of members were a part of.

 EH>>>> One day while you have nothing else to do take a look at the
 EH>>>> Edmond-Tucker Act of 1890.

 RS>>> Religious bigotry laws still exist in this country.
 RS>>> The Edmond-Tucker act is no exception.

 EH>> Are you saying the government is bigoted against the LDS Church?

 RS> In a few instances, yes.

Oh boy this ought to be interesting.

 RS> Not officially anymore, but still there are people in the US government
who
 RS> consider your faith to be nothing more than a cult.

There are people all over the world who think that. Why should I care? As long
as they don't put their belief into law it isn't a problem.

 RS> George Bush appointed people from Pat Robertson's law school into the DoJ,
 RS> and it's taught at that school that Mormons are cultists.

George Bush also gave President Gordon B. Hinkley the highest civil honor
awarded to US citizens. He also named the Mormon Tabernacle Choir "America's
Choir."

The US government has studied the LDS welfare system several times in an
attempt to see if the government could use the same thing.

Senators Orrin Hatch and Harry Reid are both prominent LDS member in
government. There are several more.

Again, you have no clue about which you speak.

 RS> Just look how last year Mitt Romney had so much bitter opposition from
 RS> conservative political Christian groups, only because he is a Mormon.

Back during JFK's run for the White House there were many non-Catholics who
were bitterly opposed to him.

 RS>>> In a couple states it's illegal for non-believers to hold
 EH>>   office. Still.

 EH>> What states would that be?

 RS> North Carolina and Arkansas, to name two.

I got that already from your last post.

 RS>>> Did you know NC's constitution bars atheists from holding
 EH>>   office?

 EH>> No, nor do I care. I don't live there and never will.

 RS> Suppose Washington state decided to add to it's state Consitution, the
 RS> stipulation that makes it illegal for Mormons to hold office.

You don't know anything about Washington state. That would never happen.

 RS> Would you simply move?
 RS> Or support repealing this?

It wouldn't happen.

 RS>>> By Christian Dem in NC Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 05:20:51 PM EST

 EH>> <snip>

 EH>>>> I find it hilarious that you idiots on the left are making all
 EH>>   this EH>> noise about polygamy while you support same sex marriage.
 EH>>   Why is EH>> polygamy bad while you and your boyfriend gettign
 EH>>   married is good?

 RS>>> Under most circumstances, I say live and let live.
 RS>>> Some nitwit wants to marry 10 wives, let him, it's suicide for
 EH>>   him RS> anyway.

 EH>> Again you give an uninformed opinion.

 RS> It's hard enough being married to one person, that's why so many marriages
 RS> go poof.

Says the marriage expert.

 RS> Being married to 10? Suicide in my opinion.

That's because you have no earthly idea about which you speak.

 RS>>> The problem is all too often with polygamist communities, child
 EH>>   brides RS> and arranged marriages become the norm, like Warren
 EH>>   Jeff's wacko bunch.

 EH>> That is a lie based on ignorance. Jeffs and his bunch are a closed
 EH>> society and do not interact with the rest of society. That is why they
 EH>> arranged marriages with child brides. There isn't enough women of age
 EH>> to marry.

 RS> Exactly. And in polygamist communities, they tend to "close ranks" like
 RS> Jeff's cult did.

Only now since polygamy is illegal! Do you have *ANY* critical thinking
ability?

 RS>>> Likewise with same-sex marriages.
 RS>>> Why should gays and lesbians be forbidden from having all the
 EH>>   same joys RS> of marriage?

 EH>> They already do.

 RS>>> You know, infidelity, money squabbles, nasty divorces, bitter
 EH>>   custody RS> battles...

 EH>> They already have that.

 RS> Oh?

 RS>>> It's the *RIGHT* that wants to tell everyone who can marry, who
 EH>>   can't, RS> who can have kids, who can't, etc.

 EH>> Yet you and Ceppa keep trying to attack me with the polygamy issue.
 EH>> Does irony have no meaning for you.

 RS> Because your own church founders put polygamy into their official
doctrine,
 RS> then took it out when it was threatened politically.

Big deal. You and Ceppa have no understanding in this or any issue regarding
religion. You merely project what you think things should be onto those you
hate.

Ed

-- 
"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of
his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who,
or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to
violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee
to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired
by it." --Thomas Jefferson

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