Text 1499, 111 rader
Skriven 2006-05-29 11:56:56 av Philip Lozier (1:267/169)
   Kommentar till text 1496 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Situation on R2:50
==========================
 MvdV> The NC has an obligation to see that mail delivered at the host
 MvdV> gets to the nodes in the net.

No... the NC has the obligation to make "arangements" for delivery.

 MvdV> What is does *not* say is how it gets
 MvdV> from the host to the leaf nodes. In particular it does not say who
 MvdV> bears the *cost*.  A glaring omission I say.

That was handled in my net years ago in the POTS only days... (see below).

 MvdV> The only explanation I can come up with is that the writers of P4
 MvdV> wrote it from the position that there *is* no cost. Which was true
 MvdV> for most if not all of the US and Canada at the time of writing of
 MvdV> P4.

I can't speak for the writers of P4, but taking into account that a net was
basicly an area code, even today it doesn;t ring true that a call within an
area code has no cost, and it definately DID have a cost out of your "exchange"
area with an area code at the time, I don;t think that was the position they
wrote it from.  It depends on the
plan a person has.  Even today, unless on the "unlimited regional" plan (calls
within an area code but outside you "local" calling area) some calls can cost
more in your own area code than calling overseas. The only people who get these
plans generaly make many regional calls, but even under the "plan" it's still
an additional cost.

Here, in the 518 area code, which covers a very large area, there was a CRP to
offset costs... however, if somebody was pulling large ammounts of echomail and
files, the "arangement" they had to make was that -they- would do an inbound
poll for such things.

CRP was only for echomail and files, and if you weren't involved in the CRP you
were OBLIGATED to call the host system once a day for your HRN if you were
outside the then NC's calling area.  It was operated under the principle that
there is an obligation to deliver the HRN, but if you were in an area that cost
it was delivered to you when you polled for it.

Back then too, remember, almost NONE of the FidoNet software was even free. 
While a hobby, it cost money to participate.  It cost money to run your BBS, as
almost NONE of the software or doors were free either.  Additional phone lines
weren't (and still aren't) free, calls weren't free... at the time of P4 many
areas still had metered calling for local calls too, never mind regional.

FREE, FREE, FREE!  That's why we haven't got the quality of development for the
network we used to and everybody struggles with their systems to try and make
it work in changing times, and the little development that -does- happen is
iffy at best.

The obligation for cost is on those who wish to participate, then -and- now.
While a hobby, just like HAM radio, nobody ever said a hobby is free.

 MvdV>>> So it does not matter who calls who when it comes to the
 MvdV>>> host's obligation of delivering incoming routed mail.

Yes it does.  I'm a host.  If in the event I ever again have a POTS node, and
that node is somewhere that would cost me money to send anything to them, it
will be their obligation to poll ME within a preset timeframe every day.  I
will provide the HRN, but you will poll for it regularly, lest you get billed
monthly for any calls out to you.

 PK>> Nope, there is no such obligation. A Host must agree to ROUTE INBOUND
 PK>> mail, but is not obliged to deliver it.

 MvdV> The intention obviously is to get the mail to its final destination
 MvdV> and in order to do that *someone* has to make a call.

Ever hear the old term "sneaker mail"... for all of what P4 says, netmail can
be copied to a floppy and "delivered".

 MvdV> The glaring
 MvdV> ommission of not saying *who* has to make the call is the telltale
 MvdV> evidence for the tacit assumption of free local calls.

I don't think so... the ommision of that, and the inclusion of "make
arangements" seems to leave it up to the individual sittuations of the
individual nets.

 MvdV> We have adapted but not without some problems. Obviously it is
 MvdV> unreasonable to demand that the host makes all the calls to deliver
 MvdV> the mail. That would put *all* of the coast on one person. So we
 MvdV> went by the rule: the leaf nodes have to call their host or hub at
 MvdV> regular intervals to pick up mail. Prefereably every day, but once
 MvdV> a week at minimum.

Absolutely, but considering how slow mail movement used to be, once a week was
insufficient in the views of the powers to be locally.

 MvdV> There *have* been a few cases here in The Netherlands were sysops
 MvdV> refused to comply. Nodes *have* been removed from the nodelist for
 MvdV> not picking up mail for an extended period of time. (A couple of
 MvdV> month).

Here, after "a couple of days" of not polling, a node was in question of being
down.  Contact was attempted to be made.  If contact was made, the sittuation
was dealt with on an individual case by case basis.  If contact couldn't be
made, the node was DOWN in the next nodelist... two weeks later removed if the
node didn't restore contact of their own accord.  It is, after all, a duty of
the node to let the host know if they'll be down for more than a few days.

 MvdV> Of course that is history. The few remaining POTS only nodes poll
 MvdV> at regular intervals and for IP it does not matter as the calls
 MvdV> *are* free.

Yup... so all a moot point really.  Just thought I'd share how it was done
here, based on local interpretation of policy, in the old days.

Phil

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