Text 3752, 254 rader
Skriven 2005-10-11 12:04:00 av CHARLES ANGELICH (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av MAURICE KINAL
Ärende: software for linspire
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123c7d650626
linux



Hello Maurice - 

CA>> Popular with people like you and I who had a thirst for a
CA>> real multitasking OS comparable to UNIX, yes. 

MK> I'll go along with that. Seems to me that most of the
MK> servers I run across on the internet are running Linux as
MK> well. I've never heard any stats on it, but I'll go out on
MK> a limb and say Linux is a serious major player perhaps
MK> better then half, internettally server speaking. 

Without taking an actual head count it does seem that linux
servers are 'well represented' out there, yes. 

MK> Probably most users are Windows though. 

I would guess-timate that Microsoft continues to have 70-90% of
the desktops. Macs account for a few but not sure how many. 

CA>> You continued along those lines after being made aware of
CA>> linux and I got distracted for a couple of decades by
CA>> other multitasking OS (and life in general). :-) 

MK> Stuff happens. No big deal is it? Anyhow Linux is readily
MK> available so nothing to get too excighted about. There are
MK> more choices now then ever. 

A bit of inertia (for me) lately but once I get moving on it I
expect to stay with it indefinitely. I will have to keep at
least one Windows machine for the sound/graphics/video but
that's not a problem. 

CA>> I believe that you would have but this is one of those
CA>> times when knowing the right _question_ is the path to the
CA>> right answer. Few even knew linux existed when I first
CA>> 'discovered' it. I was actually searching for MINIX files
CA>> and found Linux in the same directory. 

MK> Like I said, I'd heard of it but never looked until
MK> prompted. I really liked what I saw and the rest is
MK> history, although I still find myself amazed by what is
MK> possible with a little bit of creativity and tweaking. It
MK> may not happen as often as it originally did but it is
MK> still there. I honestly think there is way too much
MK> happening for anyone to really call themselves a Linux
MK> guru. Good stuff for sure. 

Just SourceForge is almost overwhelming in quantity of linux
projects and then there are the other sources plus individual
projects. It would be difficult to index all of it I think much
less have intimate knowledge of all that is available for linux. 

CA>> There was even some confusion as to whether Linux was just
CA>> a 'fork' of MINIX at that time. 

MK> I never heard that. MINIX is good stuff. Played with it a
MK> bit but still prefer Slackware over everything else. BSD's
MK> are good too, but still prefer Slackware. 

MINIX and linux appeared on the home computer scene at
more-or-less the same time (within one or two years?). There
were arguments that Tannenbaum's MINIX was the origin of Linus
Linux that added to the confusion for awhile. 

CA>> They would have to know enough to ask the right questions. 

MK> What is the right question? 

First a person would have to know the word "Linux" and have
some idea what that was then find a person who could tell them
where to find the files. So ... I guess the right question
would be something like "Where can I get a working copy of the
Linux files?". Before the internet was 'popular' the files
would exist only on _certain_ BBS scattered around the world.
:-) 

CA>> It matters in the same ways that giving GNU credit for
CA>> it's contribution to Linux matters. 

MK> It is a major player for sure. Also influences other OS's
MK> as well. 

CA>> It matters in the same way that giving credit for C-Kermit
CA>> to _all_ who contributed code to the project matters. 

MK> For sure. I have no problem singing their praises. 

CA>> It matters that even now DOS software for FIDO is as
CA>> plentiful or even more plentiful than the other OS (with
CA>> the possible exception of OS/2). 

MK> Welllllllllllll ... those days are definetly waning. Too
MK> bad really. I still like Fido and plan to hang tough until
MK> either it or I end. 

I have more respect for FIDO (the message transfer system) than
I do for internet forums, usenet, blogs, etc. on the internet.
Unfortunately the oldtimers are dying off and fading away.
Younger 'experts' are not finding their way to FIDO for a
multitude of reasons. 

CA>> DOS is still being used because what it can do it does do
CA>> and at times with little effort because it's been around
CA>> for so very very long. 

MK> It isn't like it used to be. I think some are just hanging
MK> tough is all. It is just a matter of time. 

"Time is the destroyer of ALL things". 

CA>> I don't believe that moving from DOS to Linux requires
CA>> giving up anything. 

MK> I think I gained. Best console I have ever seen. Nothing
MK> else comes close. 

I agree. The CLI for linux is very useful once a person becomes
acquainted with it. 

CA>> I just remember that DOS was 'hauling the freight' for
CA>> those attempting to install/learn linux. Downloading linux
CA>> when I found it meant accessing a DOS BBS system probably
CA>> using a DOS terminal for the connection. 

MK> I had prior unix experience so it all came back rather
MK> quickly except that dealing with hardware issues threw me
MK> for a loop at first. It still does every once and awhile. 

I'm only comfortable with hardware issues at the time I'm
dealing with them. Once I get everything resolved I move on to
other things and begin to forget the details. If the same
problems comes up again later I have to refresh my memory
before I can do much of anything. If I was dealing with the
same issues daily it would be 'easier'. Trying to be on top of
'everything' is difficult. 

CA>> Before the internet DOS BBS (and other os) were moving the
CA>> linux files around making them available to users and FIDO
CA>> echos were places to go to for help. 

MK> I'd like to think it still could be. 

When I got involved with my two mini-installs there were some
stumbling blocks trying to add FIDO access to the installs. 

1.) linux users don't think zmodem is worth having and don't
really know much about it. Took me awhile to find out there was
a modified 'telnet' that has zmodem capability. Ztelnet works
but it's a bit awkward - spawns a shell for sz/rz which isn't
how it's been done in DOS/Windows. 

2.) The word 'zip' has been misappropriated by others writing
compression utilities (gzip, bzip2, etc.) so that finding a
PKzip compatible utility becomes a process of being told
repeatedly "You _should_ use Bzip2 because it comrpesses
better" which is irrelevant because it's incompatible with DOS
BBS use of 'zip' archives. I finally found InfoZip. :-) 

3.) Those who haven't been accessing BBS are unaware of offline
readers. I happened to have had some correspondence with
William McBride some years ago and knew his MultiMail was
available in both source code and linux binaries. I also had
been using ATP which compiles for *nix OS as well as DOS. For
average newbies finding an OLR might be problematic. 

4.) How to locate a FIDO BBS isn't obvious to the uninitiated. 

5.) Many linux installs have non-functioning dialup routines
that need 'fixing'. I had to completely replace the PPP dialer
for both of my mini-installs and THAT (PPP dialup) is something
no one seemed to really understand. I had to get help from a
UNIX group on usenet. 

6.) An editor that works in a way similar to a Windows/DOS
editor would help ease newbies into the process of posting to
FIDO echos. The SCO editor, JOE, and others (I forget which but
there are some linux editors that look very much like DOS
editors). 

A _working_ dialup install containing all of the above,
preferably on a livecd, might give FIDO a shot in the arm? I
think DamnSmallLinux is a CLI SlackWare livecd? Add all of the
above to that and distribute it from SourceForge? 

CA>> Linux installs weren't as automated at the start. What I
CA>> found was an image copy of the entire OS that had to be
CA>> put onto the hard drive 'in toto' then manually configured
CA>> to match the system hardware. 

MK> That is how I find myself doing it except I am creating the
MK> images now. Install what you know darn well is going to get
MK> installed and then tweak later. I am putting on the final
MK> touches on a gcc4/kv2.6 smp system as we speak and will use
MK> that as my next generation development image. Inatalled the
MK> base yesterday after constructing it on a Gateway mb
MK> planned for a good friend and will finish tweaking on my
MK> smp jobber just to make sure it can be done. Worked really
MK> slick installing from a network connection so now it is a
MK> simple matter of spiffying it up and we have a
MK> 'distribution' ... or at least an image. 

CA>> 'Required' in the sense that average users are spoiled now
CA>> and wouldn't do the floppy install if you hand delivered
CA>> the floppies to them. 

MK> Ah! Well then they should stick to the kiddie stuff. 

Well when evangelizing linux telling them how helpless they are
won't gain 'converts'. :-) 

CA>> NOW you do. I'm referring to earlier on when few had even
CA>> heard of linux. If the installs had remained at that level
CA>> with little auto-detection of hardware parameters I think
CA>> the relative anonymity of linux would have continued. 

MK> I doubt it. Most of the people I've talked to over the
MK> years that are still using Linux are hardcore. Not that
MK> they mind simple CD installs, but they usually love getting
MK> involved in the guts of the operation so it tends to be an
MK> ongoing thing. 

I think of it as a process of refining. Get as many people
involved as possible and then let the natural process of
'selection' or 'survival of the fitest' trim that number down
then restart the process again etc. I think I see this
happening with Apple computers frequently as the 'group' grows,
shrinks, then grows again. 

CA>> Learning can become an end unto itself but most will
CA>> burnout when in that 'mode' for too very long. 

MK> I don't mind. Every once and awhile I have to walk away
MK> from it and take a breather. I think everything is that way
MK> ... is it not? 

Everything that involves a person on an emotional or highly
focused mental level is that way, yes. 

>
>        ,                          ,
>      o/      Charles.Angelich      \o       ,
>     <|                              |>  __o/
>     / >          USA, MI           < \   __\__
 

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