Text 12658, 131 rader
Skriven 2006-08-23 21:15:12 av John Beamish (1:379/45)
  Kommentar till text 12656 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Is this a pc?
=========================
From: "John Beamish" <JLBeamish@rogers.com>

Well, we could debate this for quite a while or we could bring in a few
mainframe security types to explain just how secure mainframes are.  You would
(because you've had other discussions about this back in the CS/Canopus days)
continue to grudgingly accept that mainframes might be secure.  I don't think
you fully appreciate how "boxed off" one is on a mainframe.

Minisystems?  I'm sure that many of them were easily brought to their knees (it
was a relatively cheap market to enter so everybody did).  But I wasn't talking
about them.

At the end of the day, trust me:  getting to root on a PC is a no-brainer;
getting to root on a mainframe ... well, Don Hills, Phil Payne and others here
will be only too glad to disabuse you of your assessment.

Your argument about Cadillacs and Novas introduces the deactivation discussion.
 It's not relevant to this discussion but you and I are in complete agreement
about it.

As for the different radio, different lights, etc.  Sure I've seen them.
There's a whole business line built on the aftermarket for automobiles. But
it's (hardly surprisingly) targetted towards a very, very specific segment (the
elite of the automobile owners, if you will).

Your argument about Polaroid is as interesting and compelling as the one about
product activiation.  We both agree but it's not relevant to the point at hand:
 the security of the mainframe.  The same is true about copyright.  Again, we
agree but -- yet again -- not germane to the point in discussion.

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 18:41:19 -0400, Geo <georger@nls.net> wrote:

> "John Beamish" <JLBeamish@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:op.tepiopkpm6tn4t@dellblack.wlfdle.phub.net.cable.rogers.com...
>> "You can't do that" is the solution when the proposed solution is
>> inappropriate to the problem.
>
> Ok, I wasn't cutting mainframes, I was just pointing out there was a vast
> market where the PC fit very nicely and I believe the same market exists
> for
> end user programmable consumer devices.
>
>
>> the value to the end user is directly proportional to the cost benefit.
>> What is the value to the user of a solution that is open to viruses vs
>> one
>> that, by its very nature, is completely immune.
>
> Hold it. If you are trying to convince me that a mainframe can't be
> rooted
> by a user initiated virus you are nuts. Mainframes are just as exposed as
> any PC. In fact if the PC never existed and everyone was using dumb
> terminals today to access the internet and run video and such, the virus
> problem would be just as serious as it is today.
>
> I used to run mini systems, I reported just as many bugs and security
> issues
> in those systems as in any PC. True users don't run as admin on a mini
> or MF
> system but they don't run as admin on vista either and that ain't going
> to
> make the virus problem go away.
>
> Trust me on this, it is just as easy to root a MF or mini as it is a PC.
> I
> had the guy from NEC try to claim otherwise and I crashed their whole
> system
> via a modem connection while I was talking to them on the phone just to
> prove how full of it they were.
>
>> As for the hardware people want to buy ... they want to buy a Cadillac,
>> they buy a pimped Chevy Nova -- it, too, is heavily customized.  Sure,
>> you
>> can tinker with the Nova or you can get a better ride, environment,
>> better
>> everything by going to the professionals.
>
> Ok, but I'm saying a Cadillac or a Nova that allows the end user to
> customize it with a different feature set (different radio, different
> lights, different wheels, different exhaust, etc) is far more desirable
> than
> a locked down unmodifiable product that deactivates itself at the first
> sign
> of tinkering.
>
>> the number of stock Toyotas, GMs, Fords, etc., etc., on the roads show
>> that people talk about tinkering but
>
> Ok, so you've never seen a modified car on the roads, never seen
> aftermarket
> fins or tail lights or running boards or exhaust or wheels?
>
>
>> I know life from mainframes (not the *really* big ones, my largest was a
>> CDC6600) to PCs in a LAN or peer-to-peer and lots of stuff inbetween.
>> Look at Barkto/Canopus and then look at world of computer users.  We
>> are a
>> microscopic portion of users, an elite.
>
> No we aren't, go buy any high end system today and it comes with LED's in
> the power supply, windows into the case, meters on the front, etc. All
> stuff
> that was "elite" a couple years ago. Why is that? Must be a market for it
> huh?
>
> You saw what happened with the development of polaroid cameras (under
> control of one company) compared to what's happened with the development
> of
> digital cameras (under control of a whole bunch of OEMs)? How many more
> features there are? Well when you open up the feature set to be modified
> by
> anyone instead of just the OEM you go an order of magnitude beyond that
> difference. It's a huge advantage and we are only at the very beginning
> of
> that now with some of the consumer devices that run on linux. This is
> going
> to go way WAY beyond what we are seeing today.
>
> Also as the copyright cartel gets more restrictive and controlling over
> the
> hardware manufacturers, aftermarket mods are going to be the only way to
> allow the end users to get the feature set they want without ending up in
> court.
>
> Geo.
>
>
>

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