Text 2057, 418 rader
Skriven 2005-01-18 19:07:38 av Geo (1:379/45)
Kommentar till text 2032 av Rich (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Do we protect users from their own stupidity?
=========================================================
From: "Geo" <georger@nls.net>
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In the current version of Outlook, is there a way to view the source for = an
email without opening the email first like you can do in Outlook = express?=20
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41ec70a9@w3.nls.net...
Or care to do any of those three? It is easy enough to do them all =
in any of the Microsoft email clients I use. People don't becuase they = don't
care to. Those that care do.
Rich
"Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote in =
message news:ltcou0lhvanrbp6su81dokr26fcrpiftfa@4ax.com...
Periodically I get phishing emails pretending to be from ebay, and =
they
even manage to get "ebay" into the headers, but if you look up the =
IP
address of course you find out it's not... but what percentage of =
users
A) know how to find the header;
B) know how to read it; or
C) know how to look up an IP address?
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:14:01 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in message
<41eaf508@w3.nls.net>:
> I disagree.
>
> People do very much know the difference between their own =
computer and the other computers referenced in phishing attacks. They = know
that email comes from somewhere outside their computer. They know = the web
site to which they are referred is not their computer. They = still are
fooled.
>
> People know they are choosing to download and install software =
from the Internet. What they may not know is that it is or contains = spyware.
There is no confusion over boundaries.
>
> I believe your whole idea of trust is off base. People aren't =
making decisions on whether or not to trust particular machines. I = douby
very much most people even think that way. People place trust in = other
people or in some cases who they believe those people are. = Phishing attacks
for bank sites succeed because the people the fall pray = to them believe that
the people sending the email are valid = representitives of the bank and they
trust those people.
>
> As for your initial premise, I honestly don't know what it is =
you believe is consistent that should not be or is different that should = not
be. You can't be referring to the browser which is almost never = used for the
local computer and clearly identifies what is local and = what is not.
>
> Your claim regarding phishing is also wrong. The address bar is =
one possible indicator to users. Phishing attacks preceeded any of = these and
continue without them. I've seen phishing emails that make no = attempt to
mask the domain to which they refer. People still get = fooled. The address
bar probably means little to many users. I can = tell when speaking with and
helping non-technical users that even though = they get that they type into the
address bar to go to a site they do not = always get that it is overloaded to
provide feedback to them where they = have gone. The same with the status bar.
Their have been status bar = spoofs. They make little difference. Do any of
these make a difference = to you so that you would be fooled?
>
>Rich
>
> "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net...
> part of the reason it's so easy to fool people is because of =
Microsoft. Remember some years ago when I said to make a consistant = interface
that blurs the line between the local machine and remote = machines/internet
machines was a mistake? Well that's one of the big = reasons why people today
are so easy to fool. They don't understand the = concept of trusted/untrusted
machines because it all looks the same to = them. They honestly don't know
where their machine ends and the rest of = the world begins.
>
> I understood the logic behind making that a consistent interface =
and blurring the line but I saw the problem with it as well. How is a = user to
know the difference between a remote website and a help page = from one of
their own programs if there is no difference?
>
> As for not knowing anyone who was infected due to the exploit of =
a bug, doesn't phishing work because of a bug that allows IE to show one =
address in the address bar while in fact it's talking to another = address?
What, doesn't that count?
>
> Geo.
> "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net...
> You can't protect them from their own stupidity. I've seen =
plenty of examples of people getting infected with spyware due to their = own
explicit actions, either approving when asked if something should be =
installed or explicitly downloading and installing something that is or =
includes spyware. I do not know of anyone personally that was infected = due
to an exploit of a bug. Phishing is another example that relies = almost
entirely on people being to trusting and doing something they = shouldn't. I
haven't seen an email virus in a long time that did not = rely on the user
following instructions in the email to act against his = own interest and run
or even save then open and run something they = shouldn't. We are well beyond
what many folks would consider security. = To protect against people making
these kinds of mistakes you have to = take choices they can't be trusted making
away from them. That upsets = the folks that can be trusted to or want to make
these choices unhappy. = This
>isn't far from the idea that putting you in a straightjacket makes =
you more secure because you are less likely to hurt yourself. As for = how
people react to this, do you remember the reaction to cars that = buzzed or
otherwise made noise when the driver or a passenger did not = wear his seat
belt? It wasn't positive.
>
> Rich
> "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote =
in message news:48qju0547j4l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com...
> And that is a very big problem when trying to figure out what =
security
> features should be built in or what functionality should be =
allowed. Do
> we protect users from their own stupidity? I guess there is =
a
> rationale for doing so in that if the masses' machines are =
laxly secured
> (if at all), the danger to _everyone_ increases.
>
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:07:12 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
> <41e30a96@w3.nls.net>:
>
> > I agree there are a great many people that have no =
interest in or familiarity with exercising the control available to = them.
That will always be true. =20
> >
> >Rich
> >
> > "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> =
wrote in message news:7og4u0pj8f0nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com...
> > Well, I think this conversation is all over the place =
regarding who we
> > are talking about when we talk about users. The folks =
here are an
> > entirely different animal from the famous great unwashed =
masses.
> >
> > On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:40:28 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
> > <41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net>:
> >
> > > Because you are in control, my point to george.
> > >
> > >Rich
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the current version of Outlook, is =
there a way=20
to view the source for an email without opening the email first like you = can
do=20
in Outlook express? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41ec70a9@w3.nls.net">news:41ec70a9@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Or care to do any of =
those=20
three? It is easy enough to do them all in any of the Microsoft =
email=20
clients I use. People don't becuase they don't care to. =
Those that=20
care do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Ellen K." <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:ltcou0lhvanrbp6su81dokr26fcrpiftfa@4ax.com">news:ltcou0lhvan=
rbp6su81dokr26fcrpiftfa@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>Periodically=20
I get phishing emails pretending to be from ebay, and they<BR>even =
manage to=20
get "ebay" into the headers, but if you look up the IP<BR>address of =
course=20
you find out it's not... but what percentage of users<BR>A) know how =
to find=20
the header;<BR>B) know how to read it; or<BR>C) know how to look up =
an IP=20
address?<BR><BR>On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:14:01 -0800, "Rich" <@> =
wrote=20
in message<BR><<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:41eaf508@w3.nls.net">41eaf508@w3.nls.net</A>>:<BR><BR>&=
gt; =20
I disagree.<BR>><BR>> People do very much know the =
difference between their own computer and the other computers =
referenced in=20
phishing attacks. They know that email comes from somewhere =
outside=20
their computer. They know the web site to which they are =
referred is=20
not their computer. They still are =
fooled.<BR>><BR>> =20
People know they are choosing to download and install software from =
the=20
Internet. What they may not know is that it is or contains=20
spyware. There is no confusion over=20
boundaries.<BR>><BR>> I believe your whole idea of =
trust=20
is off base. People aren't making decisions on whether or not =
to trust=20
particular machines. I douby very much most people even think =
that=20
way. People place trust in other people or in some cases who =
they=20
believe those people are. Phishing attacks for bank sites =
succeed=20
because the people the fall pray to them believe that the people =
sending the=20
email are valid representitives of the bank and they trust those=20
people.<BR>><BR>> As for your initial premise, I =
honestly=20
don't know what it is you believe is consistent that should not be =
or is=20
different that should not be. You can't be referring to the =
browser=20
which is almost never used for the local computer and clearly =
identifies=20
what is local and what is not.<BR>><BR>> Your =
claim=20
regarding phishing is also wrong. The address bar is one =
possible=20
indicator to users. Phishing attacks preceeded any of these =
and=20
continue without them. I've seen phishing emails that make no =
attempt=20
to mask the domain to which they refer. People still get =
fooled. =20
The address bar probably means little to many users. I can =
tell when=20
speaking with and helping non-technical users that even though they =
get that=20
they type into the address bar to go to a site they do not always =
get that=20
it is overloaded to provide feedback to them where they have =
gone. The=20
same with the status bar. Their have been status bar =
spoofs. =20
They make little difference. Do any of these make a difference =
to you=20
so that you would be =
fooled?<BR>><BR>>Rich<BR>><BR>> "Geo"=20
<<A href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>> wrote =
in=20
message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net">news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>>=
=20
part of the reason it's so easy to fool people is because of =
Microsoft.=20
Remember some years ago when I said to make a consistant interface =
that=20
blurs the line between the local machine and remote =
machines/internet=20
machines was a mistake? Well that's one of the big reasons why =
people today=20
are so easy to fool. They don't understand the concept of =
trusted/untrusted=20
machines because it all looks the same to them. They honestly don't =
know=20
where their machine ends and the rest of the world=20
begins.<BR>><BR>> I understood the logic behind making =
that a=20
consistent interface and blurring the line but I saw the problem =
with it as=20
well. How is a user to know the difference between a remote website =
and a=20
help page from one of their own programs if there is no=20
difference?<BR>><BR>> As for not knowing anyone who was =
infected=20
due to the exploit of a bug, doesn't phishing work because of a bug =
that=20
allows IE to show one address in the address bar while in fact it's =
talking=20
to another address? What, doesn't that count?<BR>><BR>> =20
Geo.<BR>> "Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net">news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
> =20
You can't protect them from their own stupidity. I've seen =
plenty of=20
examples of people getting infected with spyware due to their own =
explicit=20
actions, either approving when asked if something should be =
installed or=20
explicitly downloading and installing something that is or includes=20
spyware. I do not know of anyone personally that was infected =
due to=20
an exploit of a bug. Phishing is another example that relies =
almost=20
entirely on people being to trusting and doing something they=20
shouldn't. I haven't seen an email virus in a long time that =
did not=20
rely on the user following instructions in the email to act against =
his own=20
interest and run or even save then open and run something they=20
shouldn't. We are well beyond what many folks would consider=20
security. To protect against people making these kinds of =
mistakes you=20
have to take choices they can't be trusted making away from =
them. That=20
upsets the folks that can be trusted to or want to make these =
choices=20
unhappy. This<BR>>isn't far from the idea that putting you =
in a=20
straightjacket makes you more secure because you are less likely to =
hurt=20
yourself. As for how people react to this, do you remember the =
reaction to cars that buzzed or otherwise made noise when the driver =
or a=20
passenger did not wear his seat belt? It wasn't=20
positive.<BR>><BR>> =20
Rich<BR>> "Ellen K." <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:48qju0547j4l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com">news:48qju0547j4=
l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com</A>...<BR>> &nb=
sp;=20
And that is a very big problem when trying to figure out what=20
security<BR>> features should be =
built in=20
or what functionality should be allowed. =20
Do<BR>> we protect users from their =
own=20
stupidity? I guess there is=20
a<BR>> rationale for doing so in =
that if=20
the masses' machines are laxly =
secured<BR>> =20
(if at all), the danger to _everyone_=20
increases.<BR>><BR>> On Mon, 10 =
Jan 2005=20
15:07:12 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in=20
message<BR>> <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:41e30a96@w3.nls.net">41e30a96@w3.nls.net</A>>:<BR>><=
BR>> =20
> I agree there are a great many people that have no =
interest=20
in or familiarity with exercising the control available to =
them. That=20
will always be true. <BR>> =20
><BR>> =20
>Rich<BR>> =20
><BR>> > "Ellen K." =
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:7og4u0pj8f0nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com">news:7og4u0pj8f0=
nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com</A>...<BR>> &nb=
sp;=20
> Well, I think this conversation is all over the place =
regarding=20
who we<BR>> > are talking =
about=20
when we talk about users. The folks here are=20
an<BR>> > entirely =
different=20
animal from the famous great unwashed=20
masses.<BR>> =20
><BR>> > On Sun, 9 Jan =
2005=20
01:40:28 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in=20
message<BR>> > <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net">41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net</A>>:<BR>>&=
nbsp; =20
><BR>> > =
> =20
Because you are in control, my point to=20
george.<BR>> > =20
><BR>> > =20
>Rich<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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