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Text 6037, 331 rader
Skriven 2005-07-14 14:36:14 av Rich (1:379/45)
   Kommentar till text 6033 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: eeye's irresponsible self-serving behavior
======================================================
From: "Rich" <@>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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   Then I misunderstood as you started the sentence from which you =
quoted with "As for Rich's attitude about eeye being irresponsible," as = if
what followed had some relevance.

Rich

  "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:42d6c031$2@w3.nls.net...
  What I said was "to show eeye's initial stance" and I then go on to =
quote eeye. How can that not make sense to you?

  Geo.
    "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d69eb8@w3.nls.net...
       Do you not see how silly this is?  To support a claim that eeye =
is not irresponsible you use a statement from eeye that they are not =
irresponsible.  Do you really expect them to say they are culpable?

    Rich

      "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:42d695b7@w3.nls.net...
      No, I'm claiming that they could have taken control of almost =
every windows
      computer that connects to the internet at any time since the =
"information
      anarchy" program started allowing Microsoft to take 188 days to =
patch the
      most critical of exploits. Prior to that their window from
      discovery/publishing to patch was at most 2 weeks. But now with =
standard
      patch times taking roughly half a year there is always a root =
exploit or two
      that they know about that is unpatched. At the momemt there are 4 =
for
      windows and several more for other very common windows programs =
and those
      are just the ones eeye discovered, not the full batch of all known =
root
      level exploits for windows.

      As for Rich's attitude about eeye being irresponsible, this =
article about
      the "information anarchy" program shows eeye's initial stance on =
things
      pretty clearly.

      http://www.securityfocus.com/news/281

      "What's being created here is an information cartel," says Elias =
Levy,
      former moderator of the Bugtraq security mailing list, a standard =
outlet for
      'full disclosure' security information. "It actually benefits =
security
      vendors to have limited vulnerability information, because it =
makes them
      look better in the eyes of their customers," says Levy. (Levy is =
CTO of
      SecurityFocus).

      Under the plan, member companies would share detailed information =
during the
      30-day grace period with law enforcement agencies, infrastructure =
protection
      organizations, and "other communities in which enforceable =
frameworks exist
      to deter onward uncontrolled distribution." The last category =
would allow
      member companies to share details with clients under a =
non-disclosure
      agreement, and to share details with one another. "They're not =
going to ban
      it among themselves," says Levy. "They might be willing to limit =
the public
      access to this information, but I highly doubt that they'll limit =
it among
      each other."

      Marc Maiffret, co-founder of eEye Digital Security, agrees, and =
charges that
      the coalition was formed for the commercial advantage of its =
members, rather
      than the well-being of the Internet.

      "If it becomes hard to release vulnerabilities, that's a good way =
for
      Microsoft to get rid of some embarrassment," says Maiffret.

      Maiffret's company is responsible for discovering some of the most =
serious
      Microsoft security holes in recent years -- vulnerabilities in the =
company's
      IIS web server product that allow attackers to gain remote control =
of the
      system. He says eEye cooperates with vendors, and doesn't release =
advisories
      until a company has had a chance to produce patches for the =
security hole.
      But Maiffret rejects the idea of holding back on technical =
details, and
      warns that the new coalition may alienate independent security =
researchers.

      "People have to do it Microsoft's way or they'll have this group =
telling
      them that they're acting irresponsibly," says Maiffret. "It's =
going to drive
      people into the underground, and could lead to more people =
breaking into
      computers."


      Geo.

      "John Beckett" <FirstnameSurname@compuserve.com.omit> wrote in =
message
      news:nf1cd1pblvdmv4gpcp55g3671etghdujsm@4ax.com...
      > "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:<42d5ef53@w3.nls.net>:
      > > You made a claim that 95% of computers are vulnerable to the =
point that
      eeye could own them.
      >
      > I thought Geo's claim was that if eeye had not been publishing =
the bugs
      > they had found (and just kept them to themselves) over the last =
couple of
      > years, then eeye could have owned 95% of the Windows computers =
connected
      > to the Internet now.
      >
      > Assuming that no one filled this hypothetical vacuum left by =
eeye saying
      > nothing, Geo's claim looks very credible to me (with pointless =
argument
      > about whether it's really 95% or 85% etc).
      >
      > John
      >


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Then I misunderstood as =
you started=20
the sentence from which you quoted with "<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>As=20
for Rich's attitude about eeye being irresponsible,</FONT>" as if what =
followed=20
had some relevance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote=20
  in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:42d6c031$2@w3.nls.net">news:42d6c031$2@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What I said was "to show eeye's =
initial stance"=20
  and I then go on to quote eeye. How can that not make sense to=20
  you?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
    =
href=3D"news:42d69eb8@w3.nls.net">news:42d69eb8@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you not see how =
silly this=20
    is?&nbsp; To support a claim that eeye is not irresponsible you use =
a=20
    statement from eeye that they are not irresponsible.&nbsp; Do you =
really=20
    expect them to say they are culpable?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:42d695b7@w3.nls.net">news:42d695b7@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>No=
,=20
      I'm claiming that they could have taken control of almost every=20
      windows<BR>computer that connects to the internet at any time =
since the=20
      "information<BR>anarchy" program started allowing Microsoft to =
take 188=20
      days to patch the<BR>most critical of exploits. Prior to that =
their window=20
      from<BR>discovery/publishing to patch was at most 2 weeks. But now =
with=20
      standard<BR>patch times taking roughly half a year there is always =
a root=20
      exploit or two<BR>that they know about that is unpatched. At the =
momemt=20
      there are 4 for<BR>windows and several more for other very common =
windows=20
      programs and those<BR>are just the ones eeye discovered, not the =
full=20
      batch of all known root<BR>level exploits for windows.<BR><BR>As =
for=20
      Rich's attitude about eeye being irresponsible, this article =
about<BR>the=20
      "information anarchy" program shows eeye's initial stance on=20
      things<BR>pretty clearly.<BR><BR><A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.securityfocus.com/news/281">http://www.securityfocus.c=
om/news/281</A><BR><BR>"What's=20
      being created here is an information cartel," says Elias =
Levy,<BR>former=20
      moderator of the Bugtraq security mailing list, a standard outlet=20
      for<BR>'full disclosure' security information. "It actually =
benefits=20
      security<BR>vendors to have limited vulnerability information, =
because it=20
      makes them<BR>look better in the eyes of their customers," says =
Levy.=20
      (Levy is CTO of<BR>SecurityFocus).<BR><BR>Under the plan, member =
companies=20
      would share detailed information during the<BR>30-day grace period =
with=20
      law enforcement agencies, infrastructure =
protection<BR>organizations, and=20
      "other communities in which enforceable frameworks exist<BR>to =
deter=20
      onward uncontrolled distribution." The last category would =
allow<BR>member=20
      companies to share details with clients under a=20
      non-disclosure<BR>agreement, and to share details with one =
another.=20
      "They're not going to ban<BR>it among themselves," says Levy. =
"They might=20
      be willing to limit the public<BR>access to this information, but =
I highly=20
      doubt that they'll limit it among<BR>each other."<BR><BR>Marc =
Maiffret,=20
      co-founder of eEye Digital Security, agrees, and charges =
that<BR>the=20
      coalition was formed for the commercial advantage of its members,=20
      rather<BR>than the well-being of the Internet.<BR><BR>"If it =
becomes hard=20
      to release vulnerabilities, that's a good way for<BR>Microsoft to =
get rid=20
      of some embarrassment," says Maiffret.<BR><BR>Maiffret's company =
is=20
      responsible for discovering some of the most serious<BR>Microsoft =
security=20
      holes in recent years -- vulnerabilities in the company's<BR>IIS =
web=20
      server product that allow attackers to gain remote control of=20
      the<BR>system. He says eEye cooperates with vendors, and doesn't =
release=20
      advisories<BR>until a company has had a chance to produce patches =
for the=20
      security hole.<BR>But Maiffret rejects the idea of holding back on =

      technical details, and<BR>warns that the new coalition may =
alienate=20
      independent security researchers.<BR><BR>"People have to do it =
Microsoft's=20
      way or they'll have this group telling<BR>them that they're acting =

      irresponsibly," says Maiffret. "It's going to drive<BR>people into =
the=20
      underground, and could lead to more people breaking=20
      into<BR>computers."<BR><BR><BR>Geo.<BR><BR>"John Beckett" &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:FirstnameSurname@compuserve.com.omit">FirstnameSurname@com=
puserve.com.omit</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message<BR><A=20
      =
href=3D"news:nf1cd1pblvdmv4gpcp55g3671etghdujsm@4ax.com">news:nf1cd1pblvd=
mv4gpcp55g3671etghdujsm@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;=20
      "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:<42d5ef53@w3.nls.net">news:&lt;42d5ef53@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<=
BR>&gt;=20
      &gt; You made a claim that 95% of computers are vulnerable to the =
point=20
      that<BR>eeye could own them.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I thought Geo's claim =
was=20
      that if eeye had not been publishing the bugs<BR>&gt; they had =
found (and=20
      just kept them to themselves) over the last couple of<BR>&gt; =
years, then=20
      eeye could have owned 95% of the Windows computers =
connected<BR>&gt; to=20
      the Internet now.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Assuming that no one filled this =

      hypothetical vacuum left by eeye saying<BR>&gt; nothing, Geo's =
claim looks=20
      very credible to me (with pointless argument<BR>&gt; about whether =
it's=20
      really 95% or 85% etc).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  =
John<BR>&gt;<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=


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