Text 6127, 275 rader
Skriven 2005-07-17 19:46:12 av Geo (1:379/45)
Kommentar till text 6100 av Rich (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: eeye's irresponsible self-serving behavior
======================================================
From: "Geo" <georger@nls.net>
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I spoke about the motivation behind the largest windows security update = not
what was patched. The issue was that it wasn't motivated by bug = reports, it
was motivated by virus, worms, and coded exploits. The very = first sentence of
MS's overview even says this specifically.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d93a21@w3.nls.net...
you can't even remember your own bullshit. You wrote "all the =
stuff fixed ...". I replaced with what I viewed as the two major = visible
changes were new functionality and UI enhancements. The text = from
microsoft.com that you quote supports my statement not your = nonsense about
"stuff fixed".
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:42d93529@w3.nls.net...
from =
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=3D049C9DBE-3B8E-=
4F30-8245-9E368D3CDB5A&displaylang=3Den
Overview
Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2) provides new proactive =
security technologies for Windows XP to better defend against viruses, = worms,
and hackers.=20
The very first sentence specifically says exactly what I was saying, =
you want to argue, argue with Microsoft. It was not motivated by people =
reporting bugs, it was motivated by virus, worms, and hackers.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d830cd@w3.nls.net...
You are mistaken. IMHO, there are two major visible areas of =
change in SP2. One are the changes enabled by new hardware support for = NX
together with related protection backported from Windows Server 2003 = SP1.
These are visible to developers but not much to end users so I = would not be
surprised if this isn't considered a major visible change = to many. There are
no bug fixes here. Just using the new capabilities = to mitigate against harm
if an attack manages to get through. The = second are the UI changes like
changing from modal dialogs and message = boxes to the modeless information bar
in IE or text and graphics changes = to existing warnings. Again there are no
bug fixes here. The purpose = of these changes is to further discourage users
from taking action = against their own interest. SP2 includes fixes like those
you expect to = find in an SP but nothing stands out in my mind.
As for the claim that eeye was doing anything except creating =
harm to the public for their own self-interest is laughable. Off the = top of
my head I can't think of any instance of eeye doing more than = exploiting
trivial bugs. This is why I have stated several times that = their work is
interesting only in the great harm they promote and not in = any technical
sense. In particularl it has the feel of being found by = an automated tool,
which they had claimed in earlier press. If you want = examples of folks that
find interesting stuff, look at some of the folks = doing HTML based attacks,
which are more likely design flaws not simple = bugs, or the Litchfields which
report on interesting areas though ones = that usually apply after exploiting
some simple bug.
One thing I find humorous is that you from time to time go off =
on some "think like a hacker" rant as if it is a reflection on how to = find
problems. The eeye folks issue press releases on not so = interesting problems
and fail to demonstate any thinking like a hacker = in this sense. Where they
do fit this term is if you use it in the = sense of "think like a criminal" in
that they make an effort to cause = damage to others for their own financial
gain. It is entirely within = their power to change from irresponsible
self-serving jerks to serve the = greater good and still sell their products
and eat. They choose not to. =
You're not just excusing their reprehensible behavior but encouraging =
it reflects badly on you.
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:42d81f37@w3.nls.net...
Almost all the stuff fixed in the biggest security update for =
windows, XPsp2, were motivated by worm writers, virus writers, and other =
exploit coders, not by people reporting bugs. Why weren't these changes = made
years before eeye existed when the security industry was hammering = on
microsoft for their unsafe defaults, insecure features, etc? It took = YEARS of
world wide infections to motivate Microsoft to act.
Geo.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I spoke about the motivation behind the =
largest=20
windows security update not what was patched. The issue was that it = wasn't=20
motivated by bug reports, it was motivated by virus, worms, and coded =
exploits.=20
The very first sentence of MS's overview even says this=20
specifically.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d93a21@w3.nls.net">news:42d93a21@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> you =
can't even=20
remember your own bullshit. You wrote "all the stuff fixed =
...". I=20
replaced with what I viewed as the two major visible changes were new=20
functionality and UI enhancements. The text from microsoft.com =
that you=20
quote supports my statement not your nonsense about "stuff=20
fixed".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d93529@w3.nls.net">news:42d93529@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>from <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=3D049C9D=
BE-3B8E-4F30-8245-9E368D3CDB5A&displaylang=3Den">http://www.microsoft=
.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=3D049C9DBE-3B8E-4F30-8245-9E368D3CDB=
5A&displaylang=3Den</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<H4>Overview</H4>
<DIV class=3DDetailsContent id=3Doverview>Microsoft Windows XP =
Service Pack 2=20
(SP2) provides new proactive security technologies for Windows XP to =
better=20
defend against viruses, worms, and hackers. </DIV>
<DIV class=3DDetailsContent> </DIV>
<DIV class=3DDetailsContent><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The very =
first sentence=20
specifically says exactly what I was saying, you want to argue, =
argue with=20
Microsoft. It was not motivated by people reporting bugs, it was =
motivated=20
by virus, worms, and hackers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DDetailsContent><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV class=3DDetailsContent><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d830cd@w3.nls.net">news:42d830cd@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> You are =
mistaken. IMHO,=20
there are two major visible areas of change in SP2. One are =
the=20
changes enabled by new hardware support for NX together with =
related=20
protection backported from Windows Server 2003 SP1. These =
are=20
visible to developers but not much to end users so I would not be=20
surprised if this isn't considered a major visible change to =
many. =20
There are no bug fixes here. Just using the new capabilities =
to=20
mitigate against harm if an attack manages to get through. =
The=20
second are the UI changes like changing from modal dialogs and =
message=20
boxes to the modeless information bar in IE or text and graphics =
changes=20
to existing warnings. Again there are no bug fixes =
here. The=20
purpose of these changes is to further discourage users from =
taking action=20
against their own interest. SP2 includes fixes like those =
you expect=20
to find in an SP but nothing stands out in my mind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> As for the claim =
that eeye was=20
doing anything except creating harm to the public for their own=20
self-interest is laughable. Off the top of my head I can't =
think of=20
any instance of eeye doing more than exploiting trivial =
bugs. This=20
is why I have stated several times that their work is interesting =
only in=20
the great harm they promote and not in any technical sense. =
In=20
particularl it has the feel of being found by an automated tool, =
which=20
they had claimed in earlier press. If you want examples of =
folks=20
that find interesting stuff, look at some of the folks doing HTML =
based=20
attacks, which are more likely design flaws not simple bugs, or =
the=20
Litchfields which report on interesting areas though ones that =
usually=20
apply after exploiting some simple bug.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> One thing I find =
humorous is=20
that you from time to time go off on some "think like a hacker" =
rant as if=20
it is a reflection on how to find problems. The eeye =
folks=20
issue press releases on not so interesting problems and fail =
to=20
demonstate any thinking like a hacker in this sense. Where =
they do=20
fit this term is if you use it in the sense of "think like a =
criminal" in=20
that they make an effort to cause damage to others for their own =
financial=20
gain. It is entirely within their power to change from =
irresponsible=20
self-serving jerks to serve the greater good and still sell their =
products=20
and eat. They choose not to. You're not just excusing =
their=20
reprehensible behavior but encouraging it reflects badly on=20
you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d81f37@w3.nls.net">news:42d81f37@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Almost all the stuff fixed in =
the biggest=20
security update for windows, XPsp2, were motivated by worm =
writers,=20
virus writers, and other exploit coders, not by people reporting =
bugs.=20
Why weren't these changes made years before eeye existed when =
the=20
security industry was hammering on microsoft for their unsafe =
defaults,=20
insecure features, etc? It took YEARS of world wide infections =
to=20
motivate Microsoft to act.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQ=
UOTE></BODY></HTML>
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