Text 13974, 177 rader
Skriven 2005-07-08 21:49:36 av Ed Hulett (1:123/789.0)
     Kommentar till en text av Gary Braswell (1:123/789.0)
Ärende: KEEP THE PATRIOT ACT
============================
Gary Braswell -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 GB> Ed Hulett -> Gary Braswell wrote:

 EH>> Gary Braswell -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 GB>>> Ed Hulett -> John Massey wrote:>  GB>>> But what average user will know
 GB>>> to do even a small part of it?

 EH>>>>>> The average user has nothing to worry about. The average user isn't
 EH>>>>>> likely to be a terrorist.

 JM>>>>> While it may not be feasible now, how long before it is?

 EH>>>> Point out where the Patriot Act has taken any rights away from the
 EH>>>> average American.

 GB>>> Law enforcement agencies, specifically the FBI, can decide to bug you
 GB>>> and issue search warrants without first going to a judge.

 EH>> Just how does that take away your rights?

 GB> Do you know the role a judge has had in the past when law enforcement
 GB> comes with a warrant?

And just how will this take your rights away? Do you plan on becoming a
terrorist?

 GB>>> They decide if you need to be bugged or searched. No need to worry about
 GB>>> that thing called the Constitution.

 EH>> Wrong! There is nothing in the Patriot Act that goes against the
 EH>> Constitution. If there was it would be unConstitutional.

 GB> There have been unconstitutional laws before. Remember the old laws that
 GB> were enacted during the elder Bush admin. dealing with the "property" of
 GB> drug dealers? You did not have to be charged, convicted or anything. If
 GB> law enforcement thought you were involved with drugs, they could seize
 GB> anything they thought was involved. Money, property, whatever.

The "moderates" and liberals in the USSC think it's just peachy for cities to
take your property so some developer can erect a casino (or whatever) on it. No
compensation is necessary. Tell me how that is Bush elder or Bush younger's
fault.

 GB>>> In addition, you cannot tell anyone of this activity. This includes
 GB>>> family, friends, the police, the media, a judge, even your attorney, not
 GB>>> to mention your wife if she is not included in the action taken.

 EH>> Nonsense!

 GB> Its not.

Nonsense!

 GB>>> They can of course take you in for questioning and anything you say, can
 GB>>> be used against you and again, you are forbidden counsel.

 EH>> Total nonsense. There is nothing in the Patriot Act that denies a
 EH>> citizen cousel.

 GB> If he is served an FBI warrant, there is.

They have to have a good reason to serve a warrant. They can't just decide one
day that you are a danger and need to be served.

 GB>>> I am sure you will want a source for this and a conservative one, so
 GB>>> check out the book Constitutional Chaos. Written by a conservative judge
 GB>>> and one who is a regular on Fox.

 EH>> I am not about to go buy a book. Please provide something I can easily
 EH>> check. I don't care if it's conservative or not, just give me something
 EH>> I can look up on the web.

 GB> What do you have against books? Barnes and Noble have a very open policy
 GB> of browsing and reading. They provide, big comfy chairs to do it in.

I have nothing against books, Gary, I own a couple hundred of them. If all you
can do to back up your claim is tell me to read a book, then don't be surprised
when I don't go take the trouble to find and read it. I have other things I
would rather do.

 GB> Would take you just a few minutes to read.

And it would take you only a few minutes to read and quote it.

 GB>>> These items are much talked about and debated in the judicial system.

 EH>> Oh really? What judicial system would that be?

 GB> The only one relevant.

There is always debate among judges.

 JM>>>>> The fact that someone in the government thinks it would be a good idea
to
 JM>>>>> keep tabs on virtually every thing you do, every banking transaction,
every
 JM>>>>> URL you look at, all on the outside chance that it might be helpful to
some
 JM>>>>> LEA, should scare the hell out of anyone that values their privacy and
 JM>>>>> freedom.

 EH>>>> The government doesn't have access to my banking transactions, nor do
 EH>>>> they have access to yours. They don't keep tabs on everyone's online
 EH>>>> activities. The Patriot Act only allows them to look in on the
 EH>>>> activities of known terrorists.

 GB>>> Not accurate. You do not have to be a known terrorist, in fact they
 GB>>> don't even have to suspect you are a terrorist.

 EH>> Nonsense!

 GB> Its not.

Saying "is not" doesn't make it so.

 GB>>> Once the FBI decides they want to know about you, they can get whatever
 GB>>> records they want.

 EH>> More nonsense.

 GB> Its not.

Nonsense.

 EH>>>> Take a look at http://FederalistPatriot.US/papers/03-41_paper.asp and
 EH>>>> see what The Federalist has to say about it.

 EH>>>> If you have some concrete example of how law abiding American citiznes
 EH>>>> have had their right infringed by the Patriot Act I will join you in
 EH>>>> opposing it, but not until then.

 GB>>> If you can't talk about it, how can you let anyone know?

 EH>> Uh huh... I see... so, If you can't tell anyone about it how do you know?

 GB> exactly.

Huh?

 EH>>>> So far, no one has shown your claims to be based in fact.

 GB>>> Do we have wait for it?

 EH>> Wait for what?

 GB> Abuses.

Have any happened yet?

 GB>>> Frankly I am stunned that conservatives, some of the most ardent
 GB>>> defenders of the Constitution and untrusting of government, just look
 GB>>> the other way when it comes to things like this, trusting the same
 GB>>> people responsible for Ruby Ridge and Waco to do the right thing and
 GB>>> never abuse power.

 EH>> Did you look at the url I provided? Here is is again.

 EH>> http://FederalistPatriot.US/papers/03-41_paper.asp

 GB> Yes I did.

 GB> You won't even look at my references.

Not when you tell me to go find a book.

 GB> Never have.

Nonsense. When you reference a book that I have to go purchase or check out of
the library I am inclined to ignore it. I don't like being told to go read a
book. When I refuse to read the book, don't make silly assertions about me
having something against books. You have no idea the size of my personal
library.

Ed

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