Text 3888, 158 rader
Skriven 2004-10-21 16:20:02 av John Hull (1:379/1.99)
   Kommentar till text 3873 av LEE LOFASO (1:123/140)
Ärende: Kerry Excommunicated
============================
21 Oct 04 01:47, LEE LOFASO wrote to JOHN HULL:

 LL> Hello John,

 >>JH>Just picked up this breaking story.

 >>LL>Ho-hum.  Another silly story by JH.  :)

 >>JH>/*Kerry said to be excommunicated*/

 >>LL>Yep.  Definitely another silly story by JH.  :)

 JH>>The source is in the article, wise guy.

 LL> The only *source* cited was Canon 751.  And Canon 751 is totally
 LL> meaningless in regards to supporting the consultant's contention.

No, Lee.  The "source" of the article is CWNews.com with a dateline of Los
Angles, Oct. 18.  One of REFERENCES cited is Canon 751.

 >>JH>Los Angeles, Oct. 18 (CWNews.com) - A consultant to the Vatican 
 >>JH>has said Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has incurred 
 >>JH>the penalty of excommunication from the Catholic Church.

 >>LL>Really?  On what basis?

 >>JH>The consultant made his statement in a highly unusual letter to
 >>JH>Marc Balestrieri, a Los Angeles canon lawyer who formally sued 
 >>JH>John Kerry in ecclesiastical court for heresy.

 >>LL>Uh-huh.  And what part of Canon Law does the consultant claim is
 >>LL>applicable?

 >>JH>Balestrieri, who launched his case earlier this year by filing a
 >>JH>heresy complaint in Kerry's home archdiocese of Boston, told 
 >>JH>EWTN's "World Over" program on Friday that he had received an 
 >>JH>unusual, indirect communication fr the Vatican's Congregation for 
 >>JH>the Doctrine of the Faith regarding the pro-abortion stance.

 >>LL>One problem with that statement - John Kerry is not
 >>LL>"pro-abortion". At no time has John Kerry ever said he is 
 >>LL>"pro-abortion

 >>LL>So no matter how many times others might say otherwise, the fact 
 >>LL>remain that John Kerry is a practical Catholic who views abortion 
 >>LL>as being a grave sin, in accordance with his Catholic faith.

 JH>>He most certainly is pro-abortion.

 LL> John Kerry claims he is a practical Catholic, and views abortion
 LL> as a grave sin, in accordance with his Catholic faith.  He also 
 LL> has specifically stated that he is *not* "pro-abortion".

There are only two kinds of Catholic:  those who follow and live by church law,
and those who don't.  You could probably include a third type as those who were
raised Catholic but don't practice any religion at all anymore.

 >>JH>That communication provides a basis, he said, to declare that any
 >>JH>Catholic politician who says he is "personally opposed to 
 >>JH>abortion, but supports a woman's right to choose," incurs 
 >>JH>automatic excommunication. It also provided basis for Balestrieri 
 >>JH>to broaden his canonical actions and file additional complaints 
 >>JH>against four more pro-abortion Catholic politicians: Democrat 
 >>JH>Senators Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts and Tom Harkin of Iowa; 
 >>JH>Republican Senator Susan Collins of Maine; and former New York 
 >>JH>Governor Mario Cuomo, a Democrat.

 >>LL>Really?  What part of Canon Law states such a thing?  And what
 >>LL>about Tom Ridge, who holds the same position as Kerry?  After all, 
 >>LL>Ridg is Catholic.  And what about Arnold Schwarzenegger, who also 
 >>LL>holds the same position as Kerry.  Is he to be "excommunicated" as 
 >>LL>well?

 >>LL>Oh, that's right.  Only Catholics who are Democrats can be
 >>LL>excommunicated.  Never Catholics who are Republicans.  :)

 JH>>Read the friggin' article, Lee.  As for Canon Law, ask Vern or 
 JH>>Stan, they are both practicing Catholics.  I'm not even catholic.

 LL> Vern and Stan may *claim* to be practicing Catholics.  However, 
 LL> that does not make them so.  In any event, Canon Law is not difficult 
 LL> to understand, being that Canon Law is written in very clear and 
 LL> concise language.

Then why are you having such a problem?  Vern has quoted from Catholic doctrine
on many occassions and I have never found him to be in error.  In fact, if I
remember correctly, he has corrected you in that area more than once in the
past.  

 >>JH>The current action could be significant as it could undercut the
 >>JH>entire deba over denying Communion to pro-abortion politicians. An
 >>JH>excommunicated Cathol may not receive any of the sacraments of the
 >>JH>Church, including the Eucharist marriage, and even Christian 
 >>JH>burial. The type of excommunication outlined in the new information 
 >>JH>is called /latae sententiae/, which means that it occurs 
 >>JH>automatically and does not require a formal pronouncement by any 
 >>JH>Church official.

 >>LL>Golly gee.  Where does Canon Law say that Kerry and other
 >>LL>Democratic politicians are automatically excommunicated?

Read the article.  It was quoted, and seemed pretty straightforward to me.  Nor
is this the first time I have seen articles on this about Kerry.  It came up a
couple months back when he took communion and a LOT of people said he wasn't
eligible to do so.

 >>JH>Balestrieri said he went to Rome in late August to discuss his
 >>JH>canonical cas with experts, including an official of the
 >>JH>Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. Less than 10 days later, 
 >>JH>he received a letter from Father Basil Cole, Dominican theologian 
 >>JH>and consultant to the congregation based in Washington, DC, who 
 >>JH>said he had been "delegated" by Father Augustine DiNoia, 
 >>JH>undersecret of the congregation, to give an unofficial response to 
 >>JH>the question that Balestrieri had submitted.

 >>LL>This is getting sillier and sillier.  Nowhere does this article
 >>LL>say where Canon Law stipulates that Kerry and other Democratic
 >>LL>politicians are automatically excommunicated.

 JH>>Yes, it did.  It quoted the pertinent section.

 LL> The article did nothing of the sort.  It did mention Canon 751
 LL> (without quoting the text of Canon 751), but are you aware of what
 LL> Canon 751 says?  If not, let me bring you up to speed -

 LL> Canon 751

 LL> "Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a 
 LL> truth
 LL> which must be believed by divine and catholic faith.  Apostasy is 
 LL> the
 LL> total repudiation of the christian faith.  Schism is the 
 LL> withdrawal of
 LL> submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the 
 LL> members
 LL> of the Church subject to him."

 LL> The consultant called John Kerry a heretic, without qualifying
 LL> why.  IOW, the consultant had no evidence to submit in support of
 LL> his constention that John Kerry is a heretic.

 LL> I have already cited Canon 915 and Canon 1398, which likewise do 
 LL> not
 LL> offer a basis for John Kerry to be automatically excommunicated.

 LL> However, if John Kerry ever gets an abortion, he will definitely
 LL> be automatically excommunicated, as noted in Canon 1398.  :)

I don't care one way or the other from a religious standpoint.  I do know
enough about being Catholic that Kerry isn't one, regardless of what he claims.

John 

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