Text 10722, 98 rader
Skriven 2009-03-27 06:41:00 av Dave Drum (1:124/311)
     Kommentar till en text av John Fitzgerald
Ärende: Torture - A Realistic Vie
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-=> JOHN FITZGERALD wrote to DAVE DRUM <=-

 DD>   And they haven't been scientifically tested.
 DD>   What is the problem with that?

 JF>   Again, they claim nothing has been scientifically tested,
 JF>   so they are in no position to say what works,
 JF>   as they attempted to do.

 DD>   I said that they haven't been "scientifically tested".
 DD>   Why do you keep hammering on that? Is it an attempt
 DD>   to add credence to your otherwise specious arguments?

 JF>   No time for your side-winding.  I am addressing what they have
 JF> said... not what you have said.  THEY have said none of the Army's
 JF> techniques have been "scientifically tested".   From that point on they

Now who is "sidewinding"? I qouted what the authors said - so it is
automatically MY words? Get a clue, John. Or is your love for the expediency of
torture and inflicting pain so great that you cannot?

 JF> can't make claims about what works and doesn't work if they are going
 JF> to stick to that original contention.

Yes, they can. Because they have observerved which methods give reliable
information and which do not.

 JF>   In reality, they know what works from years
 JF>   of 'experience'. 'Duh'??

 DD>   Exactamundo. Now you may be beginning to get it. They have
 JF> DD?   been there and done that ... something that you and I have not.

 JF>   So when they claim 'tenderness' works on these dedicated and hardened
 JF> combatants, terrorists, etc, you don't know for sure either.  From that
 JF> point on the issues is debated.



 JF>   And just how do you expect to get any info from these
 JF>   characters if they know you will never even make them
 JF>   uncomfortable, or 'abuse' them in any way?   By boring
 JF>   them to death with silly lectures?

 DD>   Why, John, by winning their trust (or at least tolerance).

 JF>   You must really think their captives are pushovers and morons.  If
 JF> they know you're gonna goo-goo them and place 'nice', and never 'abuse'
 JF> them, or even take their blanket away, because there's always gonna be
 JF> some long-nosed pencil-pusher around to see that that doesn't happen,
 JF> then
 JF>  - WHY - should they turn on their fellow men and go against the cause
 JF> they believe in?   Can you explain WHY??    If terrorists were looking
 JF> for your friends, or fellow soldiers, would you tell them where they
 JF> were held up if they simply tried to win your trust??   Knowing who and
 JF> what they are, do you think they would EVER win your trust??  No,
 JF> because you're not a moron or a push-over.  Pew!    Think for once in
 JF> your life.

 JF>    You have nothing but empty PR claims that says 'tenderness' and
 JF> 'winning their trust' (as if that's ever going to happen) is going to
 JF> make them talk, and if they're protecting friends and a cause they
 JF> believe in, they're just going to sit there and laugh in your face
 JF> knowing you won't even 'abuse' them.

I have the article written by the people who have been there and done that. And
the examples (repeated many times in TeeVee - yes, I know, so spare me) of the
"good cop - bad cop" routines. Which have been confirmed to me by real live
police detectives who tell me that it is the "good cop" who gets the
information nine times out of ten. 

And how do you suppose that that works?

Why by the very things you Pew Pew as being specious, John.

 JF>    Obama and company know they have to deal with the real world, but
 JF> at the same time still keep the support of all the goo-goos that voted
 JF> for them.    Hence this Op'Ed and other such attempts at placation.

I don't see it as an appempt at "placation" What does "placation" mean, BTW?
Closest I can come when looking it up is "plication" which is a medical term.

If you mean placating the opposition - say so - instead of making up words.

 JF>     When it comes down to it, know that these guys are always going do
 JF> what it takes behind closed doors, just as they've always done long
 JF> before Bush ever came around, esp when time is a factor.
 JF> Wake up some day, Drum.

I know enough and am awake enough to know that if I am being tortured I am more
likely to tell the torturer what s/he wants to hear in order to make the pain
stop and make my life easier.

Take five bucks and go buy a clue, John.

... Let me know if you suddenly become interesting, Farquahr.
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