Text 11263, 109 rader
Skriven 2009-05-19 11:20:00 av Dan Ceppa (1:138/666.0)
     Kommentar till en text av JOHN FITZGERALD
Ärende: Re-examining PR Ploys
=============================
-> On 18 May 09  16:38:56, JOHN FITZGERALD got back to DAN CEPPA 
-> Re: Re-examining PR Ploys

 JF>   Nope, only claims have been made by a few hand
 JF>   picked people.
 
 DC>   Provide the creditable intel obtained via torture.

 JF> Last I've heard, any such intel was and remains classified.

Thus, you are running on an empty claim to goes against established 
facts from the FBI, military and othet intel groups "not of thr body".  

 DC>   No, you have it quite convoluted.  Consider yourself 
 DC>   under torture and you don't have the info they want.  
 DC>   How do you get them to stop?

 JF> No one has said enhanced interrogation is going to produce the
 JF> truth if the prisoner doesn't know it, so your question is bogus.

No, it's entirely germaine to the topic.  If you know the torture victim 
has certain knowledge, you already knew the answer ahead of time.  A;; 
you are looking for is a forced confession.  

 JF>   It's like you're comparing a slap in the face with a 
 JF>   beating from a lead pipe.
 
 DC>   Torture is torture.

 JF> A slap in the face is a slap in the face.  A beating is a beating.
 JF> Waterboarding is waterboarding.   Enhanced interrogation is Enhanced

It is still torture.  

 DC>   Waterboarding was peosecuted by the US as torture 
 DC>   since at least 1898.  Nothing has changed since then. 
 DC>   It is still a crime.  

 JF> This is just a legal distinction.

Yes, it is illegal and W and company broke the US law as well as moral 
edicts against such acts.  


 JF> Second, no one method is going to produce positive results 100% of 
 JF> the time and no doubt some PR individuals will parade the failures 
 JF> around while ignoring the positive results.
 
 DC>   Yeah, do more often, like 183 times to get 
 DC>   youe false information.

 JF> Where are you getting 183 from?

It's the number of times that one prisoner was waterboarded in one month. 
It was something like 6 times per day, all because he wasn't giving out what
the torturers wanted to hear.  Yeah, 1 month to get an answer, which was 
probably bogus anyhow.  That's how effective torture is when immediate \intel
is need.  


 JF>   Third, if waterboarding and the like is the overall failure PR
 JF>   people  claim it is, why have they used it for so many years?
 
 DC>   It's quite simple:  W had his crew draw up so-called "legal
 DC>   opinions" that, in themselves, were illegal. 

 JF> So simple you couldn't answer the question.  Again, why would
 JF> they resort to ie.waterboarding if it was such a categorical failure?

Because they are truly ignorant sadists.  

 JF>   Forth, if a dedicated and/or hardened prisoner knows 
 JF>   you will never 'abuse' him, not even take his blanket away,
 JF>   why would he tell you anything?
 
 DC>   Ask the interrogators.

 JF> I asked you, and not surprisingly, you can't answer.
 
Are you aware that discomforting a prison by doing that is against the 
Geneva Conventions.  Those Conventions are not quaint.  They go to the 
protection of our own miltary personell should they be captured.  It's 
hard to complain about mistreatment of our soldiers when we are torturing 
as well.  The Moral High Ground was bulldozed by our own misdeeds.  
 
 DC>   They've gotten good intel UNTIL others 
 DC>   decided to use harsher methods.  

 JF> Oh, they were getting good intel, and then decided to use methods
 JF> that don't work?

Rummy didn't get his bogus Iraq-Al Qaeda link.  You really need to 
keep.   
 
 JF> Not around here they haven't.  Esp this one which you ignored
 JF> entirely:

 JF> JF>    If a 'chat' with the prisoner yields the results you 
 JF> JF>    have been told it would, why haven't they just stuck 
 JF> JF>    with that and never resorted to more harsher methods?

 JF> Tell us why, Dan.

The very that the US declared such actions as illegal since the time 
before George Washington was president should be good enough for 
anyone with a moral conscience. 

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