Text 11908, 184 rader
Skriven 2009-06-07 23:55:00 av Bob Klahn (1:124/311)
Kommentar till en text av Earl Croasmun
Ärende: Re-examining Torture
============================
...
I went back through the thread, and read all of the re-examining
torture thread up to the point where I posted my comment. My
comment was only on the subject that some Japanese waterboarding
was described, specifically mentioning Chase Neilsen, as
identical to that used by American interrogators in Afghanistan.
Further, I downloaded the Bybee Memo, which was the legal basis
for waterboarding Zubaydah, and the description of waterboarding
in that does *NOT* involve plastic wrap, but a cloth over the
eyes, then pulled down over the mouth during the waterboarding.
Further, contrary to your pretension, the waterboarding is not
just done with a canteen cup, but can be done with a watering
can.
And it can last up to 20 minutes, in 20 to 40 second intervals,
with a few seconds between them. So, in a 6 second waterboarding
the size of the container won't make much difference.
Anyone with a basic knowledge of physics knows the impact of the
water does not depend on the container or the quantity, but the
height from which it is poured.
So, every thing I said was true, and you are the one making it
up.
...
~>> EC> "Nielsen and his fellow prisoners, who were taken to Tokyo,
~>> EC> were beaten and tortured while being interrogated. Among
~>> EC> other things, Nielsen said in interviews, bamboo splints
~>> EC> were shoved under his fingernails and then lighted on fire,
~>> EC> and the bottoms of his feet were burned with hot coals."
~>> EC> Yep, that would clearly be torture. You left that part out.
~>> Since the question was not what are all the ways Japanese
~>> tortured US POWs
EC> There was no "question."
Yes, there was, but it might have been a bit too subtle for you.
EC> There was your false claim that
EC> the four Japanese officers who were convicted of war crimes
EC> were guilty of pouring some cups of water over some plastic
EC> wrap that was placed in such a way that Nielsen couldn't
EC> ingest any of it,.
Well, wrong on every point. First because I did not give a
number of Japanese convicted, nor did I restrict it to officers.
Second, there was no plastic wrap mentioned, nor have I ever
seen plastic wrap mentioned in any discussion of waterboarding.
How much plastic wrap did the Japanese have available anyway?
The only point I addressed was that the method of waterboarding
they used, as described, is, for all intents and purposes,
identical to that used by American interrogators in Afghanistan,
and possibly Iraq and Gitmo. Nothing more.
EC> In reality they were convicted of
Irrelevant.
EC> I doubt that there is
EC> anyone in this echo so abominably stupid that they would
EC> believe that the four were convicted of pouring cups of
EC> water over plastic wrap, although some are so blindly
EC> partisan that they will overlook the absurdity of your
EC> claim.
Since I did not make any such claim, I wonder if there is anyone
abominably stupid enough to buy into your diversionary tactics.
~>> but did the Japanese waterboard in the manner
~>> the US did in Iraq,
EC> Another absurd claim that is completely unsupported.
EC> Anyone who has even casually followed the threads on this
EC> knows the differences.
The difference between the two methods of waterboarding? For all
practical purposes none. Oh, and I found you allowed for three
methods of water cure, but one did not involve anything like
waterboarding.
~>> It was irrelevant.
EC> The fact that he was tortured, and the descriptions of the
EC> torture, are relevant for showing your post to be nonsense.
Since I never said he was not tortured, your point is an obvious
strawman.
~>> ->> You are
~>> ->> assuming there were only those two methods of the "water cure".
~>> EC> You take one shot, it misfires, and then you have nothing
~>> EC> more to add to the thread. You could have stopped there,
~>> EC> but you just had to go on to make something up out of thin
~>> EC> air and then falsely attribute it to me. Nothing new.
~>> Actually, what I said was in direct response to something you
~>> said
EC> It was not in "response" to anything. You made up an
EC> absurd claim, and then you falsely attributed it to me. I
EC> pointed that out to you, and you had an amazingly stupid
EC> response.
I went back and read the entire thread of Re-examining Torture.
And I found not one thing you have said in response to my
comments is true. You did focus on two forms of waterboarding,
and the method used on Chase Neilsen was another method and
identical to the description of that used by the American
interrogatore. Note, I do not say CIA, because I do not know how
many of them were CIA and how many were contractors.
As I mentioned in the point about the Bybee memo, he talked
about waterboarding Zubaydah. I have read and downloaded the
senate testimony of the FBI agent who was interrogating Zubaydah
before the torture started. He stated that it was a contractor
who brought in the torture.
~>> EC> Actually Moe, Larry and Curly have been acting as if there
~>> EC> is only ONE type of water-related interrogation method, and
~>> EC> they lump everything (Philippines, WW II, Spanish
~>> EC> Inquisition, and so on) together under the generic heading
~>> EC> "waterboarding" as if they were all the same thing. In the
~>> EC> course of the thread I have discussed at least a half-dozen
~>> EC> very different water-related interrogation methods. Your
~>> I didn't read the entire thread.
EC> EXACTLY!!! That is no defense against the obvious
EC> dishonesty of you making up such a claim, but it does
Since my statement was absolutely correct, your comment above is
absolute bull shit.
EC> explain why you thought you might get away with it. You
EC> made it up and thought MAYBE it was true, because you
EC> hadn't read the thread and were ignorant of the fact that
EC> it was untrue. Now you kn0ow, and your position seems to
EC> be unchanged, though, so that just compounds your offense.
You are following your usual line of attacking and accusing and
claiming others are making things up when it is you who are
making things up.
I went back through the thread, and read all of the re-examining
torture thread up to the point where I posted my comment. My
comment was only on the subject that some Japanese waterboarding
was described, specifically mentioning Chase Neilsen, as
identical to that used by American interrogators in Afghanistan.
Further, I downloaded the Bybee Memo, which was the legal basis
for waterboarding Zubaydah, and the description of waterboarding
in that does *NOT* involve plastic wrap, but a cloth over the
eyes, then pulled down over the mouth during the waterboarding.
Further, contrary to your pretension, the waterboarding is not
just done with a canteen cup, but can be done with a watering
can.
Anyone with a basic knowledge of physics knows the impact of the
water does not depend on the container or the quantity, but the
height from which it is poured.
So, every thing I said was true, and you are the one making it
up.
BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn
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