Text 13726, 443 rader
Skriven 2010-06-04 19:16:08 av Ed Hulett (1:123/789.0)
  Kommentar till text 13719 av mark lewis (1:3634/12.0)
Ärende: Shooting holes
======================
On 06/03/2010 07:49 PM, mark lewis -> Ed Hulett wrote:

 EH>> I can't imagine why anyone would want to read that many echoes.

 ml> i don't necessarily want to but as a sysop and a hub for fidonet, i do
 ml> carry them on my system... i've been doing this since before fidonet's
 ml> policy 4 was put into place and, in fact, cast a vote in that selection
 ml> process... that was back in '89 but i'd been involved with fidonet for
 ml> about two years or more before then... i'm thinking at least '87 but may
 ml> have been as early as mid-'86...

You're a dinosaur...

 ml> you asked me previously what my purpose was for being here... well, i
 ml> guess you could say that i'm an enabler in similar vein that rossC is...
 ml> in fact, he and i were some of the original members of at least one of
 ml> the fidonet backbones and i've been a member of two or three others...
 ml> sometimes together but most times separately... i'm one of the poor
 ml> fools that enable you folks to carry on like savages and children as
 ml> well as like the decent adults that most folk are... yes, even when they
 ml> are acting out their "baddest" or just antagonizing others for the game
 ml> and the chase, they are still decent and good people...

Ah ah ah... you participate, so you aren't just an enabler.

 ml> as for reading, i've several reader configurations... the one i'm
 ml> currently using takes its configs directly off the master setup... this
 ml> allows me to ensure that the mail is flowing and there's nothing out of
 ml> sync or echos crossed linked...

Okay...

 ml> something else that comes to mind is that in many places, a sysop is
 ml> responsible for what his system contains... this means that one either
 ml> monitors everything or nothing... there is no half-way and deity forbid
 ml> that a sysop misses something that could bring him down... that,
 ml> however, falls into the category of encryption and hiding messages
 ml> within what appear to be legitimate messages... some of what i have seen
 ml> has been legitimate messages with more than one hidden one within
 ml> them... real fun to suss /that/ stuff out... really fun... not!

Not all sysops have or do think that way. Some (have) just set up their BBS and
let it go. I remember when there were hundreds of BBSes in the local BBS list
kept by one of the locals here. Now, there are maybe a dozen. I have no idea
how many still carry FIDO. A guy I worked with back in the late 70s and early
80s was the local FIDO hub (Mark Blakely). I have no idea if he's still
involved.

 ml> [trim]

 ml>> that'd be tantamount to forcing Yale (or Harvard) folks choose
 ml>> (fictional) "Harvard-Yale University" when they went to Yale or
 ml>> Harvard...

 EH>> That's just not right.

 ml> no kidding! that's the way i feel, too...

They took away your identity.

 ml>> damned young'uns don't understand school rivalries like we used to ;)

 EH>> I remember when I was a senior and one of our rivals filled our
 EH>> courtyard with cabbage. The principle made the jocks clean it up.
 EH>> Man it stunk!

 ml> so, what'd you do to pay them back?

Oh, that was their payback for what we did to them. I can't remember what it
was we did to them. Believe me, the cabbage was much more memorable.

 ml> this isn't a HS prank but did you hear what happened to CalTech's
 ml> Flemming House cannon? ;)

I missed that.


 ml>> say what? having a piece of sheepskin on the wall is a requirement
 ml> for a
 ml>> workable idea to stop the flow of oil? if that's the case, then it is
 ml>> easy enough to fulfill... deity knows there's numerous diploma and
 ml>> degree spammers out there who will sell ya a piece of sheepskin in a
 ml>> heartbeat...

 EH>> I didn't say a degree on your wall was a requirement, I said
 EH>> knowledge of all the dynamics involved.

 ml> right right right... i got lost in the sheepskin rant... my bad... sorry
 ml> about that...

I'm sure they have plenty of ideas, but can only try one at a time and doing so
a mile under water makes for slow going.

 EH>> Usually engineers or scientists would have a better idea of what
 EH>> may work and what may not. Just the fact that all the things they
 EH>> have tried and failed shows that it takes more than a casual
 EH>> knowledge of what is going on down there.

 ml> ya think?! hehehe... i agree, to a point... that point being that with
 ml> over 38000 suggestions from all over the world, there may very well be a
 ml> diamond in all that coal and it could be that a HS student sent it in...
 ml> ya never know...

There may be, but finding which one could take as much time as it will to drill
a relief well.

 EH>> I wouldn't want to be the one operating the ROV. The pressure on
 EH>> that person must be more than the pressures 5000 feet below them.

 ml> i dunno but those guys are damned good at what they do... i've seen
 ml> those ROVs just hover there with absolutely no apparent movement... i
 ml> was watching one the other day and this thing was dancing all over the
 ml> place... then i noticed the depth numbers were not in the 4000's and i
 ml> said, they must be surfacing for something... all of a sudden, there we
 ml> were, lifting out of the water into some pretty rough seas... the camera
 ml> was point down so i couldn't see straight out but it was pretty grey and
 ml> after some 10 or 15 minutes of being placed on the deck, there was still
 ml> a lot of water coming down in torrents... a bit later i saw some feet
 ml> approach from the side of the frame and some equipment and tools were
 ml> set down at the base of the ROV... some time later i saw that unit was
 ml> back in the water on its way to do something other than what it had been
 ml> doing previously...

 ml> very very very interesting stuff... boring as hell, though, between
 ml> action... kinda like watching the NASA channel while the crew on the ISS
 ml> are sleeping :lol:

Exactly.

 ml>> i don't doubt that some knowledge of the pressures and other things
 ml>> being run into would be a benefit but geez, these guys don't seem to
 ml>> have it all together even with their sheepskins... no one has ever had
 ml>> to work at these pressures so this is a learning experiance for all
 ml>> anyway... as far as having a sheepskin as a requirement or
 ml> qualification
 ml>> goes, one can wear it as a loincloth for all the good they seem to be
 ml>> doing at the moment...

 EH>> That's what it looks like watching the feed, but those guys are
 EH>> working almost around the clock trying to come up with something
 EH>> that will work.

 ml> oh yeah, i'm very aware of this... we won't even mention the time it
 ml> takes to ascend and decend when tools and such need to be changed out or
 ml> something needs to be taken up or brought down...

That's something that most people just don't think about while they're
attacking BP for not getting the thing shut down NOW.

There was a bunch calling for boycotting BP until they get it all done. What
these people don't understand is the gas stations that have the BP logo are
mostly franchise stores or independent dealers. If they are boycotted, it will
only cause more people without jobs and if it cuts into BP's profits at all, it
will hamper their efforts to get the job done.

 ml>> but but but... where's your sheepskin, doc?

 EH>> I wear it as a loin cloth.

 ml> hahahaha! i see you took my suggestion :lol:

It's a lot warmer than my other loin cloth.

 ml>> there are professional shit slingers, ya know... i'll make a phone call
 ml>> :P :lol:

 EH>> They are all being employed by the White House.

 ml> not all of them... there's a bunch out there "on the other side" (as
 ml> some would put it) who aren't in the whitehouse like they once were ;)

I didn't say the WH has a monopoly of them, but they do seem to have more than
their share.

There's an idiot with an R after his name in Michigan who is pushing a bill
that would force journalists to be licensed. His claim is that it would save
people from being inundated by misinformation. Apparently he doesn't understand
that much of that misinformation comes from politicians.

 ml>> and one highly limited to a tiny section of glass or plastic surrounded
 ml>> by a plastic bezel ;) too bad you can't really see or get to know me
 ml>> like that... oh well... yer still learnin' ain'cha? ah no ah iz ever
 ml>> day... it bees much fun, to! :lol:

 EH>> Hey, I have a 23" 1080p LCD monitor here. Lots of real estate.

 ml> but it is still a small portion when compared to really getting to know
 ml> someone in real life and in person ;) we won't even get into the
 ml> emoticon vs. real body language and vocal inflections stuff but you know
 ml> what i'm speaking of :)

I know what you are saying. In saying that, though, you do have to admit your
perception of me is just as limited.

 ml> [trim]

 EH>>> I couldn't care less why you thought it was relevant.

 ml>> "couldn't care less" or "could care less"?? one of those phrases means
 ml>> quite the opposite of what most folk think it does when they mistakenly
 ml>> use it in place of the other ;)

 EH>> If I could care less, I would have said so, but I tried and I
 EH>> couldn't.

 ml> ahhh... then you already care as little as you can even if there's less
 ml> and less caring you could do ;) that's good to know... at least you
 ml> haven't gotten to the bottom where there is no caring at all... that
 ml> indicates that you do care some ;) :P

LOL!

 ml>> [trim]

 ml>>> where has that been stated by my writtings? i can tell you... no
 ml>>> where... maybe you could try another tactic? possibly one that has
 ml> some
 ml>>> bearing on what really happened? are you psychic?

 EH>>> You may have tried hard to cover up the fact that you didn't do a
 EH>>> search, but it is blatantly obvious from looking at the fact that
 EH>>> it took only seconds to find citation with the simplest of search
 EH>>> terms.

 ml>> terms that you chose to use... obviously they were not the ones i chose
 ml>> to use... that or our search settings are highly different from each
 ml>> other... do you leave the pr0n filter on or turn it off?

 EH>> They were the very words I had posted to you... "Obama
 EH>> administration gives safety award to BP Deepwater Horizon"

 ml> yeah, see? that's a natural language construct and that's not how google
 ml> is actually set up to operate... sure, it works in many cases but... i
 ml> definitely wasn't trying to be that "wordy" in my search... there's no
 ml> way to repeat the search and have the same results, either... especially
 ml> since there's a lot of new stuff that's been indexed and the rankings
 ml> adjusted o'er the last week or so...

I let Google discount common words (to). It still got the results I was looking
for.

 ml> [trim]

 EH>>>> I'm not picking nits, I'm pointing out your lack of honesty.

 ml>>> ORLY? you must be psychic... tell us what the winning powerball
 ml> numbers
 ml>>> for tomorrow's drawing, please ;) while you're at it, tell us how you
 ml>>> know that i'm being dishonest...

 EH>>> It's easy to see your dishonesty. No psychic powers needed.

 ml>> then you are as blind as the proverbial bat... i have no reason not to
 ml>> be honest and, quite frankly, i cannot stand a liar so give it up...

 EH>> Are you calling me a liar?

 ml> you're calling me one... turn about and all that... goose and gander...
 ml> pot and kettle... see?

So, you admit you are a liar, but only if you can call me one, too, eh? ("pot
and kettle")

We can go for a few more days on this...

 ml> [trim]

 EH>>> Yes, you did. You made the claim that you could find nothing,

 ml>> that was not a claim... that was a fact... the terms i used resulted in
 ml>> nothing related to BP that i could easily see...

 EH>> So, you don't know how to do a relevant search?

 ml> phuuuleeze... i've been on the 'net since archie and veronica were all
 ml> the rage ;) i won't even bring up how much search methods have changed
 ml> over all the years :P

You don't have to go into that. I've been at it for about as long. Archie and
Veronica made their homes on my early PCs, too. I remember when the web first
came into popularity. Mosaic was impressive until Netscape came out.

In 1996, I was head of tech support for an ISP. Okay, I WAS tech support for
them and wrote a script for the other guys in the office to follow if I was
already busy with someone else.

 EH>>> implying that it wasn't there.

 ml>> that's your own stupidity and/or ignorance sticking its foot in your
 ml>> mouth... i never implied such and neither did my writen words... you
 ml> put
 ml>> that implication there with your interpretation which should never have
 ml>> been done in the first place...

 EH>> So, it's my fault you claimed you couldn't find it?

 ml> no... read my paragraph again... HINT: it doesn't say anything about it
 ml> being your fault that my search failed to turn up anything meaningful...
 ml> it speaks directly to your interpretation of what i wrote...

Then be more clear.

 ml>> do you use a left or right handed spinmaster?

 EH>> I don't do spin. I gather information and make my own conclusion.

 ml> left handed or right handed?

Both. I don't trust either side to tell the whole truth. And when they agree, I
get nervous.

 ml> [trim]

 EH>>>> You made the claim, back it up. You are the one claiming I have
 EH>>>> heroes and that I emulate them. Either you had some idea who these
 EH>>>> supposed heroes are, or you're just shooting in the dark.

 ml>>> you made the claim that i'm being dishonest... you made the claim
 ml>>> that i stated there was no evidence on the internet of an award
 ml>>> given by the current administration to BP for that oil well...
 ml>>> how's about you start off by backing those up ;)

 EH>>> I have backed up every claim I have made.

 ml>> no you haven't... not with physical verifiable data and evidence... you
 ml>> loose again!

 EH>> Huh? verifiable by whom?

 ml> let's keep this in context... physical and verifiable data and evidence
 ml> concerning my search attempt, what terms i used, and what the results
 ml> were...

You haven't said what your terms were. All anyone can do is assume you did it
wrong or that you really didn't try at all.

 ml> now that we're clear on that, physical evidence needs to be gathered
 ml> first before any type of verifiability can be considered... no matter
 ml> who may be qualified for that verification job... since you have no
 ml> physical evidence of what terms i used or their results, there cannot be
 ml> any backing up of any claim to come from your side of the table...
 ml> everything else is talk talk or some might consider it as strawmen or
 ml> possibly even some sort of spinmastering to confuse the situation...
 ml> that's politics and homey ain't playing that game, either :P :)

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about backing up my claim of an award
being given to BP for that well. Plus, just days prior to the explosion, the
administration congratulated them on a job well done.

Obama can try all he wants, but he cannot extricate himself from this disaster.
Especially when he sternly told the world that he was in charge from the start.
He took ownership of it and pointing fingers at Bush or Cheney just isn't going
to help him. Threatening legal action against BP isn't going to help him
either. It all makes him look petty. Also, his going on vacations, playing
golf, giving awards to Paul McCartney makes him look disengaged.

 EH>>> You, OTOH, have been going in circles trying to keep from backing
 EH>>> up any of your claims.

 ml>> nope... wrong again... you obviously don't know what i'm doing and
 ml>> you're stuck in some mode that won't let you step back far enough to
 ml> see
 ml>> it... sorry 'bout that...

 EH>> I doubt you know what you are doing. But, keep on doing it if it
 EH>> makes you happy.

 ml> hahahaha... i'm gonna have to keep you around... you make me laugh and
 ml> laughter is good for the soul :)

I'm glad you find me beneficial.

 ml> [trim]

 EH>>>> You think you are clever, but you really aren't.

 ml>>> sounds like you have a personal problem there ;)

 EH>>> That's right, make your behavior my problem. Typical.

 ml>> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... dude! you kill me!! i'm not making my behavior
 ml>> your problem... i'm making YOUR behavior YOUR problem...
 ml>> GetItTogether!<tm> :ROTFLMAO:

 EH>> What behavior? You came in here on the attack, that's your problem.

 ml> uh... sorry... i've been "in here" since this echo first appeared on the
 ml> fidonet backbone... i've been here all the time... was having a rather
 ml> decent nap until the neighborhood got all loud and in an uproar... all
 ml> i've done is to point out the schoolyard bullying and incessent
 ml> attacking of individuals from supposed adults... it doesn't matter if it
 ml> is wayne or you who are being attacked... it just so happened that i
 ml> chose one of your posts to broach the situation and point out the
 ml> problem... /that's/ the (kind of) behavior i'm speaking of...

So, you consider yourself some sort of savior?

 EH>>>>> You make a comment and when challenged, you act like you're too
 EH>>>>> smart to deal with such questions. Either back up your claims, or
 EH>>>>> crawl back under the rock you came from.

 EH>>>> <childish nonsense snipped>

 ml>>> awww... you didn't like that?

 EH>>> I thought it was childish. "Like" has nothing to do with it.

 ml>> maybe you'd prefer something like this?

 EH>> <extremely broken ascci art snipped>

 ml> uhhh... i didn't realize that you were NNTP encumbered... switch your
 ml> news reader to use a monospaced font and it'll make a lot more sense...
 ml> proportional fonts really suck when viewing ASCII charts, graphs and
 ml> art... web browsers fail too... especially when they disregard multiple
 ml> spaces and tabs ;) try it! i think you'll like it... it is actually
 ml> pretty good :)

I use Thunderbird for my news reader. In the original post it looked close
enough to tell it was a gun pointed at the reader. It is rather amusing how
someone concerned with "schoolyard bullying" would use such an offensive
message in response. IOW, this is another of those "pot and kettle" moments.

Isn't this back and forth banter cathartic? ;-)

Ed

-- 
"The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious
call, and ignorant believe to be liberty." --Fisher Ames, speech in the
Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

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