Text 5107, 146 rader
Skriven 2007-09-13 09:30:00 av BOB KLAHN
     Kommentar till en text av RICHARD WEBB
Ärende: More neo-con tactics
============================
TR>> None of the LEO's who attempted the so-called `dynamic entry' via
TR>> the window on the roof were in possession of that warrant. In fact,
TR>> the warrant was no where near the property they were attempting to
TR>> enter. It was enroute in possession of a U.S. Marshall (I believe),

 They were ATF.

TR>> but the LEO's at the scene made the decision to make a `dynamic
TR>> entry' now....and show the warrant later.

 RW> BIg mistake as far as I'm concerned.  ONe reason I've

 Tim is the only one I have ever heard that from. The LEOs did
 not attempt a dynamic entry before they were fired on. I have
 two of the anti-govt videos, numerous other videos from TV
 reports, much downloaded and saved from websites,(every website
 I have seen on this is either legitimate journalist or
 anti-govt) and such. I have not seen his claim in any of them.

 However, I have seen and heard on the video, where the TV crew
 followed the ATF agents into the driveway, and the Davidians
 fired on them as they were dismounting from the trailers.

 One of the surviving Davidians testified several of the ATF
 agents were at the door, four I believe, when Koresh closed the
 door, and he claimed the ATF agents started firing. Since most
 of the ATF agents were not in position yet, it is unlikely they
 would have opened fire. Further, it is possible Koresh closed
 the door, but a good chance he did not, and the firing started
 when the door was still open. It was a double door, and the
 right side was closed. I believe the first firing came from
 behind the right side door. If you can find the pictures of the
 door during the siege you can see why I believe this.

 RW> always been against the no knock raid with a bunch of
 RW> heavily armed individuals.  SEe TIm's comment below.

 How else would you hit a drug dealer or illegal weapons dealer?

 In this case they were hitting a group in illegal possession of
 machine guns.

TR>> I have to say that, if I were sitting in my home, heard an upstairs
TR>> window break, ran up the stairs with a firearm in my hand and saw
TR>> some heavily armed bastard dressed all in black, with their face
TR>> covered as well coming through my upstairs window, I'd empty my gun
TR>> right in the fuckhead's face!

 ...

 RW> needlessly. THe feds weren't thinking and people needlessly
 RW> died in WAco.

 The Feds did make mistakes, but people died because Koresh
 thought he was anointed by God, so he laid a trap for the
 ATF agents, then ordered his people to burn the building down. I
 believe he really thought they were going to survive, they did
 have shelters, and even that God was going to intervene on his
 side.

 ...

 RW> There are valid reasons our constitution says what it says
 RW> about unlawful search and seizure, and there are reasons
 RW> that law enforcement personnel should get and produce
 RW> warrants, or at least have them available. DOing it right
 RW> saves lives, both of the officer sworn to protect the
 RW> public and of the citizens who may be doing nothing wrong.
 RW> That's part of the old "rule of law not men" thing.

 Yet when you know the cops are coming, you don't set a trap. You
 just open the door. If they don't have a warrant, then nothing
 they find can be used anyway.

 ...

 RW> WHO will protect the public when the police break the law?"

 Black people have been asking that for years.

RW>>IIRc. RAndy WEaver ended up working in a factory in WAterloo IOwa. IIRC
RW>>also he was acquitted.  Seems the feds did fire the first shots in that
RW>>one.

TR>> That was another one that was badly mishandled by federal LEO's.
TR>> They killed Weaver's son, his wife, and the whole thing could have
TR>> been avoided by just using some common sense.

 The killed his dog, who was running at an FBI agent. The kid
 then fired at the Marshalls, who fired back. I forget the name
 of Weaver's friend who killed the Marshall, but he knew who he
 was shooting. Weaver later testified that the guy told him he
 had killed a cop.

 His wife was killed when the friend ran past her as the sniper
 was shooting at him. She was behind a door, with the curtain on
 the window closed. See the Senate Testimony for that. Oh, and
 she was armed. Again, see the Senate Testimony. Weaver's
 testimony.

 RW> INdeed. WEaver knew he was under scrutiny.  WEaver has
 RW> stated publicly on more than one occasion had they not come
 RW> at him with the commando tactics he would have never shown
 RW> armed resistance.

 The were not coming at him, they were keeping him under
 survielance when the dog discovered one of them and ran at him.
 The marshall killed the dog. Weaver's kid went into attack mode
 instead of escaping.

TR>> Many of the federal LEO names that figured in the one case, also
TR>> popped up in the other case.

 Those were FBI agents involved in the followup.

 ...

 RW> OF course not, because certain political types have
 RW> convinced, or are working to convince the public that these
 RW> tactics are legitimate when used by law enforcement at all
 RW> levels.

 The were legitimate, that is to say, legal, but whether they
 were good tactics is arguable.

 ...

 RW> the rule of law. DOesn't matter whether the A.G. is named
 RW> REno or Gonzales, or whether the official that ordered it
 RW> is JOe local police chief. IT's the wrong way to operate.

 Reno did not order either raid, she was not even in office when
 the raids took place.

 When raiding the Davidians they needed Armored cars, not
 trailers.

 Both Weaver and Koresh would probably be classified as
 terrorists under the current administration.

BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... I tried being reasonable once.  I didn't like it!
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