Text 5111, 163 rader
Skriven 2007-09-13 15:47:37 av Richard Webb (1:116/901.0)
Kommentar till en text av BOB KLAHN (1:123/140)
Ärende: More neo-con tactics
============================
BOB KLAHN wrote in a message to RICHARD WEBB:
RW> always been against the no knock raid with a bunch of
RW> heavily armed individuals. SEe TIm's comment below.
BK> How else would you hit a drug dealer or illegal weapons dealer?
THen you damn sure better make doubly sure you have the right address if you're
a law enforcement officer going to be involved in such. THe fellow in
MIssissippi wasn't the heavily armed drug dealer they sought.
THE real problem with those: A lot of times the information they're basing
such tactics on comes from some guy who thinks by telling tall tales he can get
off lighter himself. I've read of more than one cases where the nice older
couple was lying in bed when the cops entered commando style and grandpa
reached for the pistol. THese are becoming all too common with these tactics.
I've heard both arguments on the DAvidians' video, never actually having "seen"
the videos but read verbal statements from all sorts of people I"m not sure
what to believe there, but figure that juries and congressional committees are
equipped to ferret out the truth. THat's their job.
BK> In this case they were hitting a group in illegal possession of
BK> machine guns.
Again agreed.
BK> The Feds did make mistakes, but people died because Koresh
BK> thought he was anointed by God, so he laid a trap for the
BK> ATF agents, then ordered his people to burn the building down. I
BK> believe he really thought they were going to survive, they did have
BK> shelters, and even that God was going to intervene on his side.
I'm inclined to agree with this as well. From accounts I've read though I'm
still not really sure who fired first, but again juries and congressional
committees are best equipped to ferret out and deal with the truth.
RW> There are valid reasons our constitution says what it says
RW> about unlawful search and seizure, and there are reasons
RW> that law enforcement personnel should get and produce
RW> warrants, or at least have them available. DOing it right
RW> saves lives, both of the officer sworn to protect the
RW> public and of the citizens who may be doing nothing wrong.
RW> That's part of the old "rule of law not men" thing.
BK> Yet when you know the cops are coming, you don't set a trap. You
BK> just open the door. If they don't have a warrant, then nothing they
BK> find can be used anyway.
depends on where you are. Yah I know, the old "plain view" rule. YOu enter my
home by invitation or with that warrant, I can tell you that much. IF I know
you're coming and I've something to hide you can bet it's going to be hidden
away, especially if it's the courtesy visit before you get the warrant hoping
to find something like a funny little pipe in plain view. NOT that you'd find
one in my home these days <g>.
RW> WHO will protect the public when the police break the law?"
BK> Black people have been asking that for years.
ARe still asking that in places such as inner city NEw
ORleans where my wife and I managed apartment buildings.
They were fond of the no knock raid down there, as well as take the kid, shake
him down, when they found lots of cash money but no product, take his shoes,
take his cell phone, pocket the cash, drive him out to NEw ORleans east to the
edge of the city and kick him out. NOPD is some of the rudest nastiest bunch of
s.O.B.'s I've ever run across as far as cops go.
HEre's one for ya speaking of cops in the inner city.
OUr office for management duties of apartment complexes was in our living room
for awhile. wE were sitting eating lunch one fall afternoon. I"d been working
in my office upstairs after returning from unstopping a drain. wE were both
just sitting down to our sandwiches and a cold root beer when a cop sauntered
up to our Ford AErostar and tried a key in the driver's side door. Sandwich
went back on the plate and I was out the door quite quickly questioning him as
to what he was doing. HIS answer was that they busted some guy holding and he
had a set of FOrd truck keys but wouldn't tell them where the truck was so they
were trying every FOrd truck or van they came across.
THis was a rookie cop they sent on this fool's mission, and since we'd
befriended most of the homeboys they were gathering around, and the more the
cop talked the closer they got.
HE was a little green around the gills when he finally made it back to his
cruiser and got the heck out of there. HE wisely quit with the bluster and
apologized, or he might have been hurt. I wouldn't have raised a finger, just
let the homies take care of the situation.
Granted, we'd just moved in at the time and hadn't transferred the plates to
show our new address, in fact the plates were still Iowa plates, but we were
still within the legal window. HOwever, querying one of the bystanders on the
street would have elicited the information that the van belonged to the
apartment complex managers in " dat one ovah deh" or something like that. I
still maintain get the city cops out of the cruisers and make 'em walk beats
like the old days. THey actually develop relationships with the people in the
neighborhoods they patrol. WIth those relationships comes some respect for
them, and respect for the citizens. kids learn to know the local beat cop, the
merchants do too.
BK> They killed his dog, who was running at an FBI agent. The kid then
BK> fired at the Marshalls, who fired back. I forget the name of
BK> Weaver's friend who killed the Marshall, but he knew who he was
BK> shooting. Weaver later testified that the guy told him he had
BK> killed a cop.
Agreed, that was brought out in the trial.
BK> His wife was killed when the friend ran past her as the sniper was
BK> shooting at him. She was behind a door, with the curtain on the
BK> window closed. See the Senate Testimony for that. Oh, and she was
BK> armed. Again, see the Senate Testimony. Weaver's
BK> testimony.
AGreed there as well. SEe my next comment.
RW> INdeed. WEaver knew he was under scrutiny. WEaver has
RW> stated publicly on more than one occasion had they not come
RW> at him with the commando tactics he would have never shown
RW> armed resistance.
BK> The were not coming at him, they were keeping him under
BK> survielance when the dog discovered one of them and ran at him.
BK> The marshall killed the dog. Weaver's kid went into attack mode
BK> instead of escaping.
AGreed, but on more than one occasion WEaver offered them a look around, in
fact he'd spoken to them. IIRC, but this has been awhile ago WEAver was also a
licensed gun dealer. WEaver offered on more than one occasion also iirc to let
them inspect his premises and his paperwork.
TR>> Many of the federal LEO names that figured in the one case, also
TR>> popped up in the other case.
BK> Those were FBI agents involved in the followup.
BK> ...
RW> OF course not, because certain political types have
RW> convinced, or are working to convince the public that these
RW> tactics are legitimate when used by law enforcement at all
RW> levels.
BK> The were legitimate, that is to say, legal, but whether they were
BK> good tactics is arguable.
Okay, we can agree there, replace "legitimate" with good and I think we're both
saying the same thing there. I"ll still stand by my statement though that if
you're going to engage in commando tactics you'd best make sure you got the
right folks on the other end, not just the word of another two bit bum that
wants to get off lighter by telling tall tales. WIth that kind of power comes a
big responsibility.
BK> Both Weaver and Koresh would probably be classified as
BK> terrorists under the current administration.
AGain agreed.
Regards,
Richard
... Braille: support true literacy for the blind.
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
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