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Skriven 2006-04-18 23:33:44 av Whitehouse Press (1:3634/12.0)
Ärende: Press Release (060418a) for Tue, 2006 Apr 18
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Press Availability of the Director of the Office of Faith-Based and
Community Initiative, Jim Towey
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For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
April 18, 2006

Press Availability of the Director of the Office of Faith-Based and
Community Initiative, Jim Towey
Office of Faith-Based Initiative



3:09 P.M. EDT

MR. TOWEY: Thank you for coming in. Today is a bittersweet day in that it's
always hard to say good-bye, especially at a place where you've loved
serving and loved the person for whom you've served. I have a great
admiration for President Bush. I thank God he's our President. I thank God
for all he's done for our country's poor through the Faith-based and
Community Initiative. I feel that sense of sadness that a lot of the people
that you've worked with for over four years you won't be seeing on a daily
basis. I'm also extremely excited about the new opportunity that Mary and I
and my children will have in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, at St. Vincent College.

I want to introduce to you two individuals that are here that could answer
questions on the St. Vincent front. Obviously, I'm here to talk about White
House issues. But Archabbot Douglas Nowicki is to my left, and Chris
Donahue (ph), Chairman of the Board of Trustees at St. Vincent College.
Archabbot Douglas is the head of the largest Christian monastery in the
world, with 120 monks there in the hills there at the Laurel Mountains. And
Chris is Chair of the Board of Trustees. So they're part of the St. Vincent
College family.

I think I just will say a few words, and then would be very happy to throw
it open for questions as long as you like. President Bush's Faith-based and
Community Initiative is deeply rooted in America's heartland. It's
established; it will continue to bear fruit for years and years to come.
And I thank God for President Bush's leadership on an initiative that has
faced a steady headwind from day one.

I was looking today at Americans United press release, praising my
departure, and saying that I'd waged an unrelenting war against
church-state separation. In reality, this is the death rattle of the voices
that were heard when President Bush first took office, because the wall
between church and state is still standing. But faith-based groups have
been welcomed into the public square and the poor have benefitted from
having access to their effective programs.

Last year, for the third straight year, a record amount of dollars went to
faith-based religious charities, because the playing field is now even, and
hundreds of new groups each year are accessing grants, federal grants for
the first time. That's not to benefit the organization, that's to benefit
the homeless and the addicted and the lost and lonely, and individuals who
often have been denied access to having choices in programs, and having
access to programs, period.

So, in my view, I'll leave this office, after proudly serving here for four
years, deeply grateful for the results and accomplishments that we've
achieved. The court has upheld repeatedly the initiative is constitutional.
Congress has signed religious hiring legislation on welfare reform -- I
hope they'll do it on the rest of the social service reauthorization bills.
But President Bush got one bill the his desk, so I guess the returns from
Congress are kind of a mixed bag, because while we've had some success,
there's still some things left to be done. And I have every bit of
confidence the President is going to achieve them.

Right now the incentives for more charitable giving legislation is in
conference with the House and the Senate, and there's bright prospects for
that this year. And most of all, after Katrina, the country saw the truth
of why there needs to be a faith-based and community initiative. The poor
were streaming out of New Orleans, not because they just simply needed
social services; they wanted a place that would welcome them and love them.
And so often the advocates, so-called advocates of the poor have denied
them access to programs like that because the roots of many of these social
problems that Americans face today are spiritual in nature. If you don't
convince an addict not to put a needle in his arm, or help a homeless
person choose well, you've labored in vain, throwing billions of dollars in
social services at them. And I have to say that many of the so-called
protectors of the poor have never bothered to ask whether the programs they
force them to enter are effective, or not. So we measure success on whether
we spent a lot of money on drug treatment, but we don't ask the question,
whether anybody recovered, or not. I think President Bush has engaged that
debate.

So I will tell you, I know that there's a lot of change going on at the
White House today and in the days ahead, and I would be shook up if I were
part of a shake-up. But the reality is this has been in the works for
months, and I'm leaving with President Bush's blessing. I would not have
left without it.

I'm very excited about going into the service of the good students of St.
Vincent College, and with the Archabbot and Chris and others that I've met.
I believe in little. I've seen these little armies of compassion at work in
America, and I fell in love with this little college there in the foothills
of the Laurel Mountains, and the students, the faculty. So Mary and I are
taking our five children, with a lot of memories from Washington, lot of
gratitude for the great people I've worked with. I know that I would not
have been in this chair to begin with were it not for the prayers of Mother
Teresa, and I'm grateful that in some way, I hope, I was able to have
helped the poor in our country, and help our nation live up to its high
ideals.

I'd be very happy now to answer any questions.

Q Jim, are you convinced that the President is committed to his compassion
agenda now as he was in 2000?

MR. TOWEY: Absolutely. That's why I feel I can leave, too, because I know
that it's in his heart and he will continue to work until his term is
finished, promoting the Faith-based and Community Initiative and other
compassion initiatives.

Congress has funded $742 million of initiatives he launched in the State of
the Union addresses he's given. And most of all, the benefits of this are
now coming in. The White House will release a report later this year
showing the results of his compassion initiatives. So we're seeing the
first fruits of what he wanted to do, and I think America is forever
changed.

Like I said, the death rattle of the secular extremists has given way to a
common-sense, sensible approach to helping our poor. And Katrina magnified
the importance of a faith-based community initiative. So, yes, I'm
convinced, Mark.

I did not measure the success of the initiative by how much publicity we
were able to get. I looked at lasting change. And the reality is we now
have 32 governors in America with faith-based community initiative offices.
I was in Jacksonville last week -- packed house. We've had 23 of these
conferences; we always cut off registration. That's remarkable to see how
in the heartland people get this.

So I am convinced the President knows this, as well, and will continue to
push this initiative forward. And he's always going to face a steady
headwind; nothing worthwhile is easy.

Q Will it survive his administration?

MR. TOWEY: I believe it will. I believe it's taken root. I don't believe a
successor President can come in and say, let's set the clock back on civil
rights and start discriminating again against faith-based charities. Let's
tell them to tear down their cross, or move the mezuzah from their door.
Let's tell them that they can no longer access these funds. No. I think
this has taken root, and I think it will be part of President Bush's
lasting legacy. But he has a lot more work to do. And I feel like the part
that I could do, I thank God for that chance. And now Mary and I move on,
on our next chapter, and we'll trust that Josh and others will continue
this work forward for the President.

Q Jim, as you know, the program never became quite as big as Governor Bush
outlined in 2000, and your predecessor, another Pennsylvanian, John
D'Ilulio, had expressed some frustration that it hadn't been a bigger
program. To what do you attribute -- obviously, you're proud of what you
did here, and the size of the program -- but to what do you attribute the
fact that it wasn't as big as Governor Bush outlined in 2000?

MR. TOWEY: Well, I think we, at least during -- I can only speak during my
tenure, Matt. I thought that, when I took this job, the lower profile, the
better. I don't feel that these issues would be advanced by food fights and
religious rivalries. And, in fact, we see Democrats and Republicans coming
together. We have 12 Democratic governors with faith-based offices. I've
gone and had forums with them.

I think September 11th changed the landscape on all of the President's
priorities when he took office. The reality is, America was changed forever
by the attacks on September 11th and that affected everything, from a
budgetary standpoint, as well as from a policy time standpoint. The
President has understood very clearly his obligation to keep America safe
and to fight terrorism and to advance freedom. And to do these things, of
course, there are going to be other issues that will have less presidential
time.

What I find exciting, however, is that this initiative, whenever it's
needed President Bush's engagement, he's been there. Never once in over
four years when I went into see him was he opposed to a new initiative.
When he went to Philadelphia, which I think was the high point of my first
year, December 12th of 2002, and issued his equal treatment executive order
-- that had huge significance for these faith-based charities that had been
stiff-armed and crowded out of the public square. And that didn't require a
lot of publicity; it simply required presidential resolve, and it's always
been there for me.

So I think all of the initiatives, when you look at them, Matt, they've all
suffered from a post-September 11th environment because our nation was
attacked -- they should have suffered. But I think that when you look at
the lasting effects of these changes, I think you'll be talking about this
for generations. Because we will never help our poor if we don't give them
reasons to change, and government can't love and government cannot bond and
connect with our poor; they will never have the trust of the poor like a
rabbi or a preacher or some of these grassroots groups that may have no
particular faith at all.

That's why -- my favorite part of the job was to travel the heartland and
go to places all over America and see these armies of compassion doing this
work. You'd see them in a little hut, a little shack -- no one has ever
heard of them, and they're out there with prisoners that are just out of
jail, or they're with kids that don't have a parent, they're with women
that are drug addicts. This is the great work of America, and those groups
should be embraced and not blocked.

Q Jim, do you think -- you're going to have a report later in the year on
the effectiveness of these programs, and you've been out seeing these
armies of compassion at work, and clearly, religious motives are behind a
lot of the good work that volunteers do. But is it your feeling now that
the religious components of these programs, as well, their sharing of the
faith is what makes them successful?

MR. TOWEY: Whether faith is shared or not isn't my job. My job is to make
sure no government money is funding proselytizing or inherently religious
activities. And I think we've done a very good job on that front. A handful
of grants have been challenged in five years.

Whether an individual, after-hours of a job training program, goes into a
12-step program that's privately funded -- that's not for our office to
determine whether that's good or bad. But I think America benefits every
time an addict recovers.

Q But the inherent contradiction or question is, is it precisely the things
that the government can't pay for legally that make these programs
successful?

MR. TOWEY: Well, look at the Salvation Army. They know how to segregate
their public money from their private money. And I think you can run these
programs in an effective way, and constitutionally, without asking the
group to sacrifice their vitality, which might be that spiritual
imperative.

The reality is America should be availing our poor access to programs that
could transform their lives, and let them choose to go to the programs.
President Bush has never said, oh, we want to force people into a program.
We want to give them choice. All along the President -- and I'm proud to
say his budget expanded choice in the Workforce Investment Act and the drug
treatment program called Access to Recovery -- first time ever, under this
President, that we have addicts choosing treatment. We're going to have
results from that.

To me, when that's happening, that's the individual choosing. I don't think
government should be pushing people into religious programs. To me, that's
noxious. And I think if you coerce a person with faith, that's noxious; it
goes against every bit of their human dignity to be compelled or forced to
embrace a faith. But if there are programs that are out there that are
effective and an individual chooses them, we shouldn't allow secular
extremists that are so freaked out about religion to block them from going
into that program if it could transform their life. And I think that's why
Katrina showed that, pretty dramatically so.

There's always going to be a tension, Allen, (ph) on these church-state
issues, and there should be. And the reality is our founding fathers
intended there to be a tension with the free exercise clause, establishment
clause. So anyone sitting in this chair will have to walk that tightrope,
but it's worth walking. The poor are worth the effort.

So, from my standpoint, I'm thrilled with progress that's been made in the
face of steady opposition by a vocal minority. And if you were to poll the
numbers of the United States Senate, they would codify equal treatment
tomorrow if they could get it to the floor -- and so would the House. And I
think the President will be pushing for that until he leaves office.

Q What's your greatest disappointment?

MR. TOWEY: Well, you know, you always look back at mistakes you make, and
I've made plenty. I would love to have seen everything accomplished by now.
You'd love to have the whole charitable choice agenda through Congress by
now, so that faith-based groups could have their civil rights back and hire
on a religious basis. The federal court upheld that right in New York, and
I don't know why Congress balks at it -- it's only a handful of Senate
Democrats that do, really, that's keeping this from getting to the
President's desk. So that's a disappointment. I'd love to have seen the
charitable giving legislation to the President's desk by now; happy to see
it's in the pipeline.

So the jury is still out on whether I have disappointments, because I'd
like to wait until the end of the presidency. And I have every confidence
in George Bush that he's committed to this initiative and he's going to
press on. When I told him I was leaving I saw in his eye his conviction.
This is one of his most important policy initiatives and I think his
presidency will be judged by it and he'll be judged favorably for it.

I would love to see more Democratic support. As a Democrat, as a pro-life
Democrat, I would love to have seen more embrace it. But I think the
politics prevented some of them from doing that. I would love to have seen
more interest at that level, but the reality is, it didn't deter us. I'd
worked on the Hill for seven years, and when I got here, I was not going to
make Congress the grade giver on the initiative. And that's why the
President, when he asked my counsel, I proposed the regulatory route, he
embraced it. And it's worked.

Q Jim, how successful do you think you've been in convincing private
players, corporations or foundations, to actually give more to religious
organizations.

MR. TOWEY: We'll see. The President, on March 9th, held a roundtable with
some CEO and corporate leaders and Secretary Gutierrez is going to make
this a big part of his moving forward with corporate America, foundation
America. I think the genie is out of the bottle when it comes to treating
faith-based groups fairly. There should not be corporations out there that
say, we don't give to religious charities, without even asking, can you
segregate the funds, can you make sure all your money goes to your
effective program or not.

So I feel like there's no turning back. And the President deserves credit
for his boldness and courage in launching this, and I think he'll stay on
corporate America to remove these barriers. There should not be major
corporations, as there are today, that, when you go and ask for funds,
you're told, well, if you're a religious organization you're not eligible.
To me, that is invidious discrimination. And who suffers? The poor suffer,
because then they're not able to access these programs.

As you can see, to me, this is a passion, this issue. And I thank God -- I
started this job with a full head of black hair -- (laughter) so the job is
not without stress. But it's been worth every second of it, because I get
out there in the country and see the poor and you see that they're being
liberated now and able to access more programs.

I don't look to government as my savior. I don't look to government that
it's going to solve these problems. It has a critical role to play. But
these questions about effectiveness are long overdue in coming, and it's
high time for the so-called shepherds of the poor to start answering the
question, why they don't bother to measure results and ask whether these
billions of dollars are working or not. We're trying to change that. We
need help to change that ethic, that culture.

But the work has been worth it. I've had the privilege to work with the
poor and to see lives transformed all over the country -- inspirational.

See, what you all don't see that I get to see all the time is the President
alone with a recovering addict, or with a kid whose mom or dad is in
prison, or a refugee that was just resettled through a faith-based
organization, and to see their tears of gratitude. I remember this one
refugee who said, thank you, Mr. President, for my freedom. She had just
come from Liberia, had suffered horrific persecution, escaped barely alive.
She said, thank you, Mr. President. And he said, no, don't thank me, thank
America. He didn't say, thank the religious group. He said, thank America.
I mean, that's where his heart is.

And I never worried about how big our staff was or why aren't we in the
West Wing? It didn't -- the slightest -- when Andy Card asked me about a
West Wing office, I told him I didn't need a West Wing office because the
President was in the Oval and he's committed to this initiative. So
corporate America will get it. It's going to take some time.

Q What did President Bush say to you when you told him about your decision?
And did you offer him any sort of advice on successors?

MR. TOWEY: He embraced me, thanked me. He could not have been more
gracious, because I told him I would stay if he wanted me to and I would
not leave without his blessing. And he said this was a great opportunity
for you and Mary; he wanted to know a lot about St. Vincent College. I'm
going to get him a sweatshirt as soon as my one-year ethics rule is up.
(Laughter.)

But he clearly knows that for an initiative to succeed, it's got to have
buy-in in senior staff. But I've been working with Josh for four years, and
in the budget battles. Look where the Faith-based and Community Initiative
is -- how it's fared. So I've got every bit of confidence in the new Chief
of Staff -- he's a friend of the Faith-based Initiative -- and other people
working in the West Wing and elsewhere.

But most of all, the country gets it. The governors get it, the mayors get
it. I was with the Mayor of Chattanooga yesterday. He's got a faith-based
community initiative office opened. I was with the Mayor of Jacksonville.
They have a faith-based and community initiative. None of that was out
there before George Bush took office.

Like I said, Washington can be a stalemate on some minor legislation, but
out in the heartland, they've already reached a conclusion. They want
faith-based groups in the public square helping our poor.

He was great. He's always been great to me. I have a tremendous debt of
gratitude to George Bush. I admire him. I'm like -- I voted for him the
first time, but didn't really know him; knew his brother. But I thank God I
voted for him both times. I'm glad he's our President. I'm just -- I just
have to call it like I see it. But when I look at the strains on him and
how he holds up, I just admire that. I look at the strains on me, with the
tiny sliver of his pie, and I don't have ultimate responsibility. I thank
God that he's in that chair.

Q And the question about successors.

MR. TOWEY: Successors?

Q Yes.

MR. TOWEY: I think they're in the process now of looking at candidates to
fulfill -- to fill that position, and I told him I would stay up to June
2nd. And I'm sure that Josh will be meeting with me very soon to talk about
that. I turned in a transition memo and talked about these issues with Karl
and with Josh and with the President. I don't worry about it because the
President realizes that this initiative is his and that he's going to see
it through and he will marshal the resources he needs within the White
House to accomplish that objective.

A lot of great people in this office -- Catharine Ryun and Dennis Grace,
and some of the people I've worked with here, just extraordinary people.
It's not just a one-person job. Trust me. Just extraordinary people that
have worked here along the way.

Q Jim, why did you decide to leave at this time?

MR. TOWEY: Every -- I don't want to sound like Andy. He stole that
Scripture of "everything has a season." But for me, I felt like the work
that I came to do is completed. I saw a wonderful opportunity at St.
Vincent College, and I applied there, and I'm grateful to God that I was
chosen. I looked at my wife, Mary, and my kids, 13, 11, 9, 6 and 3, and
said this will be a wonderful new chapter in our life over in Latrobe,
Pennsylvania.

I believe that you pray and you pray and you discern God's will. Mother
Teresa always said to me, do things for the glory of God and the good of
His people. And this job, I've always felt that I could do work for the
glory of God, the good of our country and particularly our poor. And I want
to continue to serve and make a difference and St. Vincent College gives me
that chance. It's a liberal arts college, wonderfully diverse student body.
So it was that opportunity, too, Allen, helped boost me to walk.

But I would never have left without the President's blessing, period. He
has that kind of loyalty. He commands it, because people that work closely
with him day in and day out see -- get a measure of that man, and we love
him.

Q Jim, do children of the President get free tuition? (Laughter.)

MR. TOWEY: If they make it through school.

ARCHABBOT NOWICKI: Yes.

MR. TOWEY: Do they?

ARCHABBOT NOWICKI: Yes.

MR. TOWEY: Oh, they do? That's a bonus. (Laughter.) The four boys are
excited about St. Vincent College, but I have to say they're more excited
right now that the Pittsburgh Steelers train at St. Vincent College in the
summer. So we've got Allen Cooperman coming to get his supply of Rolling
Rock Beer, and Matt comes to see his friend, Arnold Palmer, once in a
while. Mr. Rogers comes from Latrobe, and, in fact, the Fred Rogers Center
is at St. Vincent College, it's being built there. Archabbot Nowicki was a
close friend of Fred Rogers. And I love that, because you're going to have
Catholics and evangelicals and Jews and people of no faith at all, and then
that student body -- I love that -- to help the students grow, spiritually
and intellectually and emotionally.

You know, during this job I got to go to a bunch of colleges to lecture. I
love to go to Dartmouth and Yale and Harvard and Princeton, Georgetown and
Davidson, and go and argue the church-state issues. So I've been out there
-- the University of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson Debate Club. I debated
Barry Lynn once. And I love going to college campuses. It's the pursuit of
the truth. One of my favorite books was Ghandi's autobiography, My
Experiments With the Truth. My own faith, that seeking of the truth, this
unites our faiths. That's why I have a mezuzah at the door. There's certain
truths that we have in common. I want to build on that. I have a great
chance to do that at St. Vincent's.

So, that's a long answer. Free tuition, and Mary and I get to have time
together before dinner, as well as during dinner and after dinner.

Anything else?

Q Could I ask one last one? You said, before you even took the job, one of
your career goals was to get to heaven. Do you think you're a little
closer?

MR. TOWEY: Mary?

MRS. TOWEY: It's more his marriage with me that's helping him attain that
goal than this job. (Laughter.) I would say, yes.

MR. TOWEY: You know, one of the truths I always felt, that you're as holy
as your last prayer. So my career goal remains to get to heaven, and I've
felt this job is part of my journey. And now my next step, to St. Vincent
College, will be part of my journey. I always trust myself to the mercy of
God.

But I think that there's something very sanctifying about being with the
poor and with the little. I've been really blessed. I'm the luckiest guy in
this administration, bar none. The benefits of my job, to go out there and
see what I've seen, to meet America's religious leaders -- Hindus, Sikhs,
Orthodox Jews, other faiths -- just exciting to me. You know, meet people
like Rick Warren and all the cardinals and the Episcopal bishops. It's a
beautiful tapestry of faith in our country.

This is something America can teach the world, about how diverse faiths
live together. I had the Chief of Staff to the President of France in here
about a month ago, and he looked at this picture of the President praying
in public, and he said, our President could never do that. And I said, I
feel sorry for you. I was asked, would there ever be an atheist President?
My answer is, I hope not. I still feel that way. And I feel like, more than
ever -- I was at Walter Reed hospital seeing soldier Neil, and seeing his
ultimate sacrifice, and the reality is Neil needs a heck of a lot from this
country now, and he needs our prayers, too.

So, yes, I don't know if I'm any closer to heaven. I'm the last person to
judge that. But the great spiritual writers often speak of it as a decent.
So Karl Rove won't have me to put in a headlock anymore. I'm just kidding.
(Laughter.) He's a good friend. He's had running jokes with me, and I
finally got even with him right before Christmas, when I was able to ask
the President, with Karl seated there, and a number of other senior staff,
on whether Karl was a product of evolution or intelligent design.
(Laughter.) Some things are just deep mysteries.

Q So it hasn't been sanctifying to spend time with the press? I noticed you
left that out.

MR. TOWEY: You know something, I have never had any issues with the press
since I've worked here. That's the God's truth. I'm interested in the
truth; I think that's why you all take these jobs. I mean, there's a
certain adversarialness, and I don't quite understand your business, but --
I don't know. I can't think of too many things negative. Even Barry Lynn
(ph), I know Barry. Barry ought to be sending us flowers for all the
fundraising we've done for him. (Laughter.) I didn't make any enemies here,
thank God, and we sure made a lot of friends along the way, especially in
this office.

Q Pennsylvania has a Senate race with two strong pro-life Catholics, in
Casey and Senator Santorum. Have you thought how you might vote as a new
Pennsylvania resident in that race?

MR. TOWEY: I'm still working on Pennsylvania Avenue. I'm a big fan of
Senator Santorum and what he's done for the Faith-based Initiative. But
I'll have to register to vote and hear the issues and hear where the
candidates stand on them. But I have to say that I've still got my mind in
this job now, until I leave it; I'm still working full time for the
President. But I'm a big fan of Rick Santorum's.

MR. TOWEY: Elisabeth, anything? I saw you way back there.

Q Everyone has asked my question.

MR. TOWEY: Thank you all for coming. A lot of you I've worked with over
these years, and you've been just tremendously fair. And I admire your
work. I know you've got difficult, difficult jobs. So, good working with
you, and come to Latrobe. The Archabbot is going to welcome you. John
McKinnon, there's a monastery there that you can come and sit in a little
cell in to pray.

Q Do they have a weekend package deal? (Laughter.)

MR. TOWEY: They have the Rolling Rock tour on Saturday.

Q Do you want to give us just a few basic details about the college? The
size of the student body --

ARCHABBOT NOWICKI: The college is 1,600 students, from just about every
state in the country and a number of other nations. We were pleased that
Jim Towey accepted our offer to come to St. Vincent. He's a wonderful model
for what Americans need, and particularly young people in our country. His
dedication, his compassion, his real commitments to this country and to the
future of this country is something that I know that we're all looking
forward for him to share with the generation of students that are there
now, and future generations.

Q Is St. Vincent associated with a particular religious order?

ARCHABBOT NOWICKI: It's the Benedictines, which is probably one of the
oldest orders. We go back to the 5th century, when it was established by
St. Benedict, who was an Italian and established the first monastery.
Probably our greatest fame, though, is that St. Ignatius, who was the
founder of the Jesuits, was taught by the Benedictines. We sort of take
credits for the Jesuits and anything that they might have done. So places
like Georgetown, I think certainly -- we want to give them a certain amount
of reverence, but they ought to know and realize that whatever they have to
offer came first from the Benedictines. (Laughter.)

MR. TOWEY: Largest monastery -- Christian monastery in the world.

Q In terms of number of monks?

ARCHABBOT NOWICKI: Number of monks. We have 185 all together, 120 at St.
Vincent. We have 20 in Brazil, four in Taiwan, about 58 in the different
parishes in the eastern part of the United States.

Q So is it the 120 figure that makes it the largest, or the 185?

ARCHABBOT NOWICKI: -- 185 would make it.

Q That's not all in one place.

ARCHABBOT NOWICKI: Well, 120 at St. Vincent, which would still probably be
the largest in one place.

Q Bigger than Mt. Athos?

ARCHABBOT NOWICKI: I don't know.

MR. TOWEY: I like that, Allen, you can throw some monasteries at us.
(Laughter.) But the 185 -- their home monastery is St. Vincent, but they're
kind of out there away from the mother ship, but due back. (Applause.)

END 3:43 P.M. EDT

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