Text 12157, 166 rader
Skriven 2007-02-13 05:55:55 av Vorlonagent (15598.babylon5)
     Kommentar till en text av rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Ärende: Re: Military tactics in sci-fi?
=======================================

"Jeffrey MacHott" <Raguleader@netzero.net> wrote in message 
news:lfVzh.197808$5l2.162141@fe02.news.easynews.com...
> Vorlonagent wrote:

>> That was open melee.  You couldn't expect that the G'Tok was using the 
>> Whitestars as blockers or diversions so much as teaming with them in a 
>> moment of conveienence.   "Hey, those two whitestars have a Shadow 
>> pinned. Let's help finish the job"  It helps that Shadow ships feel 
>> something akin to pain.   You can stop one in its tracks with a hard 
>> enough hit.
>
> Actually, in the big fleet brawls during the Shadow War, we do see 
> Sheridan and Delenn issuing orders for various units to support each other 
> in various ways.  Presumably there were other commanders doing the same 
> thing on a smaller scale, though as you say, it may have simply been "This 
> is White Star 42, we've got a Battlecrab tied up, someone whack it!"  "In 
> G'Quon's name, it shall be whacked!"  "LOL, pwned." "OMGWTF hax"  (er... I 
> get carried away)

..With Sheridan and Delenn in charge of the big picture.  Yes.


>>> Pretty much every Earthforce fight we've seen has involved the capital 
>>> ships firing at each other from ten paces, rather than going for 
>>> broadsides or close engagements.
>>
>> I disagree.  How many times could an Earthforce ship have closed and 
>> seemed to have chosen not to.  I don't think any.
>>
>> * Earth Ships, even the Shadow Omegas, didn't have the speed or 
>> maneuverability to close with whitestars, so we can drop No Surrender, No 
>> retreat and Between the Darness and the Light.
>
> White Stars aren't exactly capital ships.  They're skirmishers, albeit 
> excessively overpowered ones.  The Victory destroyers were meant to be the 
> capital ships for the White Stars to work with, but that didn't quite work 
> out and Earth Force ended up with the only example.  As a rule, the White 
> Stars will work with whatever capital ship they can round up from an IA 
> member world (usually Minbari warcruisers, often EarthForce destroyers)

Unimportant for purposes of trying to figure out Earth's normal tactics.


>> * The White Star was deep in Jupiter's atmosphere, a place the Omega 
>> dispatched to deal with it couldn't follow so we drop Voices of 
>> Authority.
>>
>> * It's hard to tell mow much Sheridan's ships stood off against Earth's 
>> Defense Grid in Endgame because they were trashing stuff as fast as they 
>> could.  Leave a question mark there.
>
> IIRC, in that battle, for the most part, it was the fighters and 
> skirmishers that were getting in the teeth of the G.O.D. satelites, 
> Agamemnon, Apollo, and presumably other capital ships, closed the distance 
> to the satellites only towards the end of the battle, though I will grant 
> they may have been closing the entire time (though I can't think of a good 
> reason to get CLOSER to them, since they seemed to lack point defense 
> systems, and the extra range would only serve to better protect your own 
> ships from their fire)

That's why there's a question mark there.  It's impossible to tell if the 
bigger ships were hanging back or stuff was getting destroyed too fast for 
them to close.  Nor is the circumstances very amenable to divining standard 
doctrine anyway.

None of these engagements are, in point of fact.  That's another of my 
points.


>> * Likewise it was hard to tell how far back the Agamemnon stood back when 
>> facing the Strieb ship in All Alone in the night.  But it was close 
>> enough to fillet the Strieb ship nicely with lasers.  Question mark.
>>
>> * Severed Dreams, both The Churchill and Alexander went point-blank 
>> toe-to-toe.
>
> Well, the point that spurred this entire branch of discussion was that the 
> Alexander was employing non-traditional tactics because Major Ryan was not 
> a classically trained fleet officer, as it were.

With B5 interchanging generals Admirals and whatever, you have no way of 
knowing that for certan.  You can allege it, but can't prove it.  Not when 
Sleeping in the Light shows "General" Ivonava.  Ryan acted like a flag 
officer in most respects.  No different from any of the other naval 
commanders we've seen.

That's why the way B5 muddies rank and service branch is so bothersome.  You 
can't take anything for granted that you would with a 21st century military.


> Churchill didn't exactly go point-blank with her enemy, she *rammed* the 
> enemy

She was already close enough *to* ram the enemy.  That's my point.  BOTH 
ships had to have been mixing it up at close range.


> when the Churchill was soon to be destroyed anyways.  Presumably she'd 
> have to be fairly close to do this to begin with, but we have seen that 
> Omega destroyers can take off fast for a ship that big, and they turn like 
> cows, so the other ship might just not have had a chance to get out of the 
> way, due to their being pointed head-on at their targets (in this case, 
> the target being the now-suicidal Churchill)

She hit her target broadside.  Which target that was depends on whether you 
look at the ship or listen to the dialogue.  :)

We have seen Omegas and Hyperions pivot on their axes and run 180 degrees 
back the way they came.  In Severed Dreams, even.  My bet's Hidoshi caught a 
captain unprepared.

> Speaking of ramming enemy ships... how many ships has Ivonova lost due to 
> ship-to-ship collisions?  Have ANY of these been *intentional*?  I think 
> our favorite plucky Jew needs an optometrist exam.

More likely she needs to know when to quit.  A thing Russians aren't set up 
to learn.  :)


>> Nothing worked all that well against the Minbari, in point of fact.
>
> Well, there's always minefields, the great leveler.  The trick, of course, 
> is getting an enemy to boldly venture INTO a minefield, which tends to be 
> an involved affair.  Sheridan hasn't found a way to do it yet that didn't 
> require losing ships and men first.  Flying out to slap a limpet mine on 
> the enemy doesn't count here (especially since nobody tried it on a 
> Minbari directly...), but Sheridan gets bonus points for having the brass 
> cajones to pull that off.

Sheridan is a tactical McGuiver with a nuke in-hand.

My guess is that minefields aren't tactically feasable when you have to mine 
in 3 dimensions.


>>> Sheridan's rebellion, where the primary combatants were agile, heavily 
>>> armed small ships that swarmed the Destroyers), but the Earthforce 
>>> destroyers in general tend to lack the kind of agility they'd need for a 
>>> maneuvering fight, though we HAVE seen Omega destroyers haul ass when 
>>> motivated (A Call To Arms)
>>
>> One of the most fake-looking bits of B5 CGI I have ever seen, I might 
>> add.
>
> New EarthForce stealth tech.  Trick the enemy into thinking that your 
> fleet of ships is in fact just some tacky CGI diversion.

It does help to have the tacky CGI artists on your side, that's for sure. 
:)


-- 
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent

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Shaken, not stirred."

"Spirituality without science has no mind.

Science without spirituality has no heart."

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