Text 13401, 195 rader
Skriven 2007-04-09 21:05:30 av Carl (16846.babylon5)
     Kommentar till en text av rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Ärende: Re: Attn JMS: The five stages of grief and  "FALLEN SON: THE   DEATH OF
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"Vorlonagent" <nojtspam@otfresno.com> wrote in message 
news:zclSh.8050$YL5.7994@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "Carl" <cengman7@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:zOSdnSNFDrUMRIrbnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>>> It puts him in the same bind as Superman.  They're both anachronisms, 
>>> throwbacks to a less-harsh way of looking at the world.  In postmodern 
>>> thinking, especially the cynical stuff, nobility is an illusion of 
>>> appearance, not a character attribute.  Innocence is equated to 
>>> blindness and is not highly valued.  The comics companies naturally 
>>> think that a postmodern Thor or Superman would sell better and look for 
>>> ways to update the characters, none of which have worked that well.
>>>
>>
>> Why does "Good" have to equate to blind or innocent?
>
> It doesn't.  But it is often equated, especially by the hyperintellectual, 
> world-wearly cynics out in the art world.  Innocence is considered to be 
> not viewing the world "as it truly is".  The best therapy for such an 
> individual is a dose of reality.  The last shread of noble knighthood in 
> Spain, Don Quixote de La Mancha has to be confronted by the Knight of 
> Mirrors and be reduced to his "real" state, a half-mad petty noble.

And who decides how the world "truly" is?   My experiences in life are very 
different than many and I will interpret the same information differently 
than others with different experiences. I don't assume my view is more 
correct than anyone else's.

I don't think it's impossible to reflect the world as various shades of gray 
without dragging everyone down.  Most people on both sides of any issue have 
a reason to take their position that has some basis in truth to it.   Why 
isn't it possible to write a character that is true to their beliefs and 
fights honestly and fairly for those beliefs?  Even if they fail (perhaps 
particularly if they fail) a person can be a good and noble person in how 
they live their lives, fight their battles, and treat other people.


> The real world does not welcome true good, it crucifies it.  Or if you 
> prefer, puts a bullet through its head.
>
> It's an old tale and an old problem.

You can't reflect the "true" world as a harsh and cruel world unless you've 
stamped out all of the good first?
How pathetic.

> Right now, we seem to have a taste for heroes that reflect the harsher 
> world in which we live.  Our comics writers and artists certainly have a 
> taste for reflecting it back to us.  I have a limited taste for that sort 
> of stuff. Anything can be good if done with art and finesse.  I like 
> Watchemen and Dark Knight Returns, but not most examples of style of 
> writing that they spawned.

Is it that the hero has to reflect a harsher world, or do comics use the 
harsher aspects
of the world to justify the type of action that might show well on a movie 
screen?
It seems most kids are becoming addicted to action and motion.

Marvel had a vigilante in Daredevil 40 years ago. DC has Batman (or did he 
die too?).
I think it's good to have characters like that as long as they're treated 
intelligently and not
reflected as the model for all others.

> Alan Moore and Frank Miller led.  That's why their stuff is made into 
> movies (not always good movies, mind you...).  Chris Cleremont led when he 
> wrote X-Men.  That's why we see much of his plots and characters echoed in 
> the X-Men movies, and very little of the 20-year welter of garbage that 
> Marvel's mutant population has become.
>
>
>> If comics evolved to an adult genre, then of course more sophisticated 
>> themes have to be reflected.  I assume Marvel didn't employ JMS to write 
>> fairy tales and children's books.  Still, if you're going to have a 
>> universe with immortal gods, aliens and super powered beings, why is that 
>> universe reduced to the the worst of the real world?  Can't a few be 
>> noble?  Does everyone have to be dragged down even in comics?
>>
>> Is that why they killed Cap?
>
> I am not 100% sure, but I am 85% sure.  Or maybe that stetement is 85% 
> correct.  Yes.
>
> Steve Rogers is out of touch with his times, perhaps hard to write for. 
> His is a world of right and wrong not shades of gray and the character 
> isn't someone you can mold.  It's who he is.

Steve Rogers is only out of touch with the times if he's written that way. 
I don't recall him being stupid or unable to learn, simply that the prism 
through which he sees the world was includes WW II as a frame of reference. 
Why couldn't someone write a story in which he goes in certain of his 
position, fighting for what he thinks is right, only to find out the issue 
isn't right vs wrong?

Cap's strength wasn't that he was always right (who is?), but rather that he 
would always fight with everything he had for what he believed and he would 
never give up.  He saw what people could be, and tried to live up to that 
standard.  Couldn't someone write intelligently about how someone with that 
drive and conviction to do his best might struggle and adapt?

> Wolverine is cynical enough to massage to fit the moment.  He's easy to 
> write for.  Ideally, so would a Captain Wolverine America.   The fact that 
> Wolverine couldn't get a spark out of a green lantern ring powered by 
> genuine nobility is not important.

Great.  Wolverine grunts & cuts.  Why bother with dialog?

> There are potential politcial commentary overtones to Civil War and 
> Captain America's death, also, as there is with much that passes for art 
> right now.

I don't know enough about Civil War to comment on it, other than to note
than when I checked a Marvel newsgroup over the weekend to learn more
about what's going on, it seemed almost universally condemned.
Of course that could simply be the most vocal opinions being expressed.

>>> Comics used to belive in Santa Claus but somewhere drifted over the line 
>>> and kept going.  Put another way, the Punisher today has the same 
>>> attitudes and methods as when he was a Spider-man villain.  He didn't 
>>> change but the world did, making him a hero now.
>>
>> So the Marvel universe is filled with super-powered, postmodern, 
>> everything is gray types.  A hero is a villian is a hero...it just 
>> depends on from the perspective you're looking at it from.
>
> You got it.
>
>> Give Paris Hilton a bra that shoots energy bolts and she's an Avenger?
>
> Only if she sells.
>
> You gotta admit there'd be plenty of room for equipment...


>>> If you haven't read DC's "Kindom Come", I highly recommend it.  One of 
>>> its subtexts is a discussion of exactly this tendency in comics.
>>>
>>>>>> I heard that now Iron Man has become an egomaniacal control freak?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm hoping it will turn out to be the alternate-universe Tony Stark 
>>>>> but yes. He was the driving force behind the registration law that 
>>>>> triggered the civil war.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pity too.  I liked Iron Man too.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Are there any good guys left?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm afraid you'll have to define that.
>>>>
>>>> Cap's dead.  Iron Man seems to have lost some of the shine on his
>>>> armor.  Thor had been reduced to a powerful butt-kicker before
>>>> his rest.  I don't think they'd make Spiderman a bad guy (way too
>>>> popular and making money in movies), but if Marvel decided that
>>>> Thor couldn't even be noble (or did you say "Moral") then who
>>>> in the Marvel universe stands for anything?    Is there any character 
>>>> that's
>>>> looked on as anything more someone in a costume with powers?
>>>
>>> I don't know.
>>>
>>> Spider-man's probably as close as you get.
>>>
>>> Everybody else seems as lost in the postmodern world as the readers of 
>>> comics often are.
>>
>> Well, Marvel apparently has enough readers that like this direction.
>
> Plenty that buy it at least.  And many of those don't realize there's 
> anything else.
>
> Soceity will rediscover nobility.  It may not be our society, but *a* 
> society will.  No dark age lasts forever.  Nor any period of 
> hyper-intellectual, self-satisfied cynicism.

Reminds me of a quote from Heinlein.  Something along the lines of

In Ancient Rome, Roman matrons used to say
"Come back with your shield or on it."
Later this custom declined.  So did Rome.

Carl

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.

Specialization is for insects."
--- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
 * Origin: Time Warp of the Future BBS - Home of League 10 (1:14/400)