Text 13407, 182 rader
Skriven 2007-04-10 05:18:25 av Vorlonagent (16852.babylon5)
     Kommentar till en text av rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Ärende: Re: Attn JMS: The five stages of grief and  "FALLEN SON: THE    DEATH O
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"Carl" <cengman7@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:X7WdnbjHE4FwbYfbnZ2dnUVZ_segnZ2d@comcast.com...

>>> Why does "Good" have to equate to blind or innocent?
>>
>> It doesn't.  But it is often equated, especially by the 
>> hyperintellectual, world-wearly cynics out in the art world.  Innocence 
>> is considered to be not viewing the world "as it truly is".  The best 
>> therapy for such an individual is a dose of reality.  The last shread of 
>> noble knighthood in Spain, Don Quixote de La Mancha has to be confronted 
>> by the Knight of Mirrors and be reduced to his "real" state, a half-mad 
>> petty noble.
>
> And who decides how the world "truly" is?   My experiences in life are 
> very different than many and I will interpret the same information 
> differently than others with different experiences. I don't assume my view 
> is more correct than anyone else's.

That's good.  They don't assume you're viewpoint is more correct either.


> I don't think it's impossible to reflect the world as various shades of 
> gray without dragging everyone down.  Most people on both sides of any 
> issue have a reason to take their position that has some basis in truth to 
> it.   Why isn't it possible to write a character that is true to their 
> beliefs and fights honestly and fairly for those beliefs?  Even if they 
> fail (perhaps particularly if they fail) a person can be a good and noble 
> person in how they live their lives, fight their battles, and treat other 
> people.

You get some stories like that, especially some of the better ones. 
Succeeding despite human flaws or failing well (or at least interestingly) 
mark some of the better stories.

They can't all be like that because that's not the kind of tories that are 
generally being written.


>> The real world does not welcome true good, it crucifies it.  Or if you 
>> prefer, puts a bullet through its head.
>>
>> It's an old tale and an old problem.
>
> You can't reflect the "true" world as a harsh and cruel world unless 
> you've stamped out all of the good first?
> How pathetic.

Yoiu can't reflect what you can't or won't see.


>> Right now, we seem to have a taste for heroes that reflect the harsher 
>> world in which we live.  Our comics writers and artists certainly have a 
>> taste for reflecting it back to us.  I have a limited taste for that sort 
>> of stuff. Anything can be good if done with art and finesse.  I like 
>> Watchemen and Dark Knight Returns, but not most examples of style of 
>> writing that they spawned.
>
> Is it that the hero has to reflect a harsher world, or do comics use the 
> harsher aspects
> of the world to justify the type of action that might show well on a movie 
> screen?
> It seems most kids are becoming addicted to action and motion.

I work in the video game trade.  I think there's a self-feeding cycle here 
and it isn't any one factor driving it.  There's a taste for it out there, 
so it is delivered.  The taste of greater stimulation is there as is the 
desire to compete for the dollars.

Society is not allowed to restrian freedom of expression so there are no 
checks on the cycle.


> Marvel had a vigilante in Daredevil 40 years ago. DC has Batman (or did he 
> die too?).

He just had his back broken for a while.


> I think it's good to have characters like that as long as they're treated 
> intelligently and not reflected as the model for all others.

The Batman is for the most part.  The Dark Knight Returns model of the 
Batman holds sway.  No up to date info on Daredevil.


>> Steve Rogers is out of touch with his times, perhaps hard to write for. 
>> His is a world of right and wrong not shades of gray and the character 
>> isn't someone you can mold.  It's who he is.
>
> Steve Rogers is only out of touch with the times if he's written that way. 
> I don't recall him being stupid or unable to learn, simply that the prism 
> through which he sees the world was includes WW II as a frame of 
> reference. Why couldn't someone write a story in which he goes in certain 
> of his position, fighting for what he thinks is right, only to find out 
> the issue isn't right vs wrong?

Been there, done that plenty of times.  The US government went as far as to 
strip him of the Captain America title for a while.

It's what and who Stever Rogers represents that is the problem.


> Cap's strength wasn't that he was always right (who is?), but rather that 
> he would always fight with everything he had for what he believed and he 
> would never give up.  He saw what people could be, and tried to live up to 
> that standard.  Couldn't someone write intelligently about how someone 
> with that drive and conviction to do his best might struggle and adapt?

I don't know.  Maybe that's not the sort of story that "sells" these days.


>> Wolverine is cynical enough to massage to fit the moment.  He's easy to 
>> write for.  Ideally, so would a Captain Wolverine America.   The fact 
>> that Wolverine couldn't get a spark out of a green lantern ring powered 
>> by genuine nobility is not important.
>
> Great.  Wolverine grunts & cuts.  Why bother with dialog?

He also reminds you he's "The best there is at what he does"  Whatever that 
is.  :)


>> There are potential politcial commentary overtones to Civil War and 
>> Captain America's death, also, as there is with much that passes for art 
>> right now.
>
> I don't know enough about Civil War to comment on it, other than to note
> than when I checked a Marvel newsgroup over the weekend to learn more
> about what's going on, it seemed almost universally condemned.
> Of course that could simply be the most vocal opinions being expressed.

I've probably read about half the content.  No more, maybe less.  It's a 
piece of crap.  Poorly plotted, poorly executed, cynical as the day is long. 
Most of Marvel's stalwart heroes were warped badly by Civil War.  Tony Stark 
as soulessly profiting off the money that changes hands over Civil War, Reed 
Richards voluntarily helping the US build a prison in the negative Zone for 
anyone who refused to register (a probable Guantanamo bay reference in my 
eyes since the sentence for refusing to register seems to be life--which 
conforms to some of the more colorful assertions concerning Guantanamo). 
Then there's the villains that get retreaded to hunt those who won't 
register, the really bad villains dismembering Skrulls in order to shaeshift 
enough to avoid the inevitable hords of government soldiers in armor.

I won't gall you with the details of the Thor clone or the heroes the clone 
killed.


> Reminds me of a quote from Heinlein.  Something along the lines of
>
> In Ancient Rome, Roman matrons used to say
> "Come back with your shield or on it."
> Later this custom declined.  So did Rome.
>
> Carl
>
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
> balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
> take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
> analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
> cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
>
> Specialization is for insects."

As with others, I like this quote.


-- 
John Trauger,
Vorlonagent

"Methane martini.
Shaken, not stirred."

"Spirituality without science has no mind.

Science without spirituality has no heart."

-Methuselah Jones
--- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
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