Text 7767, 179 rader
Skriven 2006-09-06 22:43:00 av Robert E Starr JR (8264.babylon5)
Ärende: Re: Orion CEV...Apollo St
=================================
  * * * This message was from Carl to rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.m * * *   
         * * * and has been forwarded to you by Lord Time * * *         
            -----------------------------------------------             

@MSGID: <H5mdnWE9e5lKGmLZnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@comcast.com>
@REPLY:
<1157089134.365132.150710@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com><MPG.1f6227b2d41cf5759896c2@news.la.sbcglobal.net><1157139114.853


<kruegerb76@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:1157513749.780352.224140@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Carl wrote:
>> To assume that educational problems will be solved by throwing more money 
>> at
>> them is just buying into a mentality that the government can cure all 
>> things
>> if we spend enough.  That's just wrong.  The answer isn't just raising
>> budgets or assuming that if you pay teachers more that they'll be better
>> teachers.
>
> I agree.  It isnt' "just" raising budgets and assuring better pay for
> teachers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against teachers (or anyone else) making more 
(although zI think it should be merit based and there shouldn't be tenure). 
It just seems that every time someone points out a problem with the current 
system, the status quo reflexively says "Higher pay, lower class sizes!" as 
the uiniversal answer.

> Just wait a few years, folks.  The baby boomer generation is just
> retiring.  We will be facing a teacher shortage if something doesn't
> attract qualified people to those jobs.

I think it will take more than money. See below.

>> What do we learn from the schools that are doing better?  We learn to
>> demonize them.  We lie about them and say that private schools do better
>> because they can cherry pick their students, when statistics indicate 
>> that
>> seldom happens (less than 2%).  We have classes that slow down to suit 
>> the
>> slower students and make the brighter students get bored out of their 
>> minds
>> waiting for everyone to catch up.
>
> They CAN throw trouble students out a lot easier than public schools
> can.  That's the nature of private school.

Theoretically they can, but in practice it doesn't happen often enough to 
affect performance statistics.  That's an red herring that's tossed out.  At 
the same time, private schools often have larger class sizes.

>> We have a system in which the existing institution resists any change, 
>> any
>> accountability, and demands more and more money without producing any
>> results.
>
> If you think "accountability" isn't an issue that's being seriously
> addressed, you haven't been to my state's schools lately.  I don't know
> if their proposed test will end up working or not (pass the test or
> don't graduate).  But there is definitely a movement for accountability
> that isn't going to go away.  You may or may not agree with how they
> are "accounting", but that's another day's debate, it's getting late.
> LOL

We just started merit based pay for teachers in MN, and the teacher's union 
is screaming that it's unfair.

>
>> Few parents are willing to sacrifice part of their kids education,
>> particularly on a school system that has shown no ability to improve 
>> itself.
>
> If they are showing no improvement, they'll be taken over by the state
> then.

And how has the state demonstrated a capacity to improve things?
It's the state run schools that are the problem.

> What I see as a college instructor is a widening gap in education.  The
> students entering in the "upper-level" classes are maybe sometimes a
> bit better or a bit worse than the last year, but for the most part
> they stay the same.
>
> The "developmental" classes seem to have more and more students in
> them, who know less and less.
>
> The middle almost doesn't exist anymore.  You're entering
> college/university in the top tier or the bottom, period.  And trust
> me, this is NOT how it was in 1989 when I first started teaching full
> time, college mathematics.

I have some issues with colleges, but overall they're far better than K-12.

I take issue with classes being taught by TAs, too much emphasis on sports, 
our U of MN taking huge amounts of tax money and not permitting the state a 
look at their books.  I take issue with the way most colleges teach Computer 
Science.   I have other gripes, but there's a lot of choice and a lot of 
good things about our college system too, and I'm not suggesting that our 
college system is failing.

> I have no magic answers for public education, but I do have one
> "mantra".  I sincerely believe we need to segregate students by ability
> more.  I know "segregation" and "education" are really uncomfy mixes,
> but you simply have to teach students differently, depending on their
> need and their level.

I agree we need to stop trying to normalize students and classes. 
Hopefully you can find something that each child is good at and encourage 
them accordingly, but you should never hold a child back.  Kids should 
always be challenged and never allowed to coast.

I also think we need to extend the school year (which is being done here in 
MN).

My daughter goes to a school where every teacher is given a school supplied 
cell phone and every teacher is reachable to any student until 10 PM.  The 
kids are expected to have every single assignment done ON TIME.  If they're 
having difficulty with a problem they can call the teacher and either go 
through the problem with the teacher then or make arrangements to spend some 
time outside of class to go over the problem after class.  No homework, no 
credit.  My daughter missed one assignment her first year.  Her grade 
dropped form an A to a C because of one missed assignment and she had to 
work like crazy to get her A back.  She hasn't missed another assignment. 
The teachers almost always pass back the graded assignments the next day.

If a student is in any extracurricular activity, they are expected to 
maintain a B average or better.   If their grades drop, they must stop the 
activity.  Every kid is expected to take a foreign language.

If you show up late for class, you're given some task like cleaning out the 
microwave ovens after school (first offense).

Her school is the top in the state, and 100% of the students are at or above 
grade level in every single category, and well above state averages in 
testing (and MN is higher than the national average).

The teachers seem to truly love teaching there, and activities such as 
evening band concerts always seem to have a very large percentage of the 
teachers showing up.


> I'm lucky, when I get a class that has people who can't multiply or
> subtract signed numbers (integers) in algebra, I can fail 60% of them,
> no one will blink an eye.

The fact that you get ANY students to a college math class that can't 
multiply signed numbers is as damning  a statement of our current system as 
I can think of.

> It's college now.  It's actually almost expected.  But public school
> teachers can't do that.

That's a big problem.  Student doesn't learn the necessary material? Oh 
well...pass him anyway.  Don't want to damage his or her self-esteem!

We don't expect enough from people.  We let people drop out of high school 
and then pay them unemployment when they can't get a job.  What is that?  If 
a person is unemployed and wants help, that's fine, but they have to be 
willing to work for it.  Society should be able to at least *expect* 
everyone to finish a high school education.

> I simply don't know how they cope.  And as the teacher shortage gets
> more and more desperate, I don't know how we are going to cope.

I think a lot of potential teachers don't bother because they see how bad 
the system is.  How do you encourage people to train for failure?    How do 
you keep good teachers when they see students growing up and not able to do 
basic math...or even read at anywhere near grade level?

I certainly don't have all the answers... I don't even know all of the 
questions... but I do see what's working at my daughter's school, at private 
schools, and with some of my friend's that home school.  The kid's are not 
allowed to just coast and fail.  It's not a matter of money.  It's not a 
matter of class size.  It's not any of the common excuses that are given.
                                               
--- SBBSecho 2.11-Win32
 * Origin: Time Warp of the Future BBS - Home of League 10 (1:14/400)