Text 8699, 88 rader
Skriven 2006-09-20 17:01:00 av Robert E Starr JR (9196.babylon5)
Ärende: Re: Atheists: America's m
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* * * This message was from Josh Hill to rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.m * * *
         * * * and has been forwarded to you by Lord Time * * *         
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On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:02:07 -0400, Jeff Teunissen <deek@d2dc.net>
wrote:

>Josh Hill wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> I would argue that philosophy can be expressed in numbers, that
>> anything can be expressed in numbers. As a physicist, forget which
>> one, once observed, mathematics is formalized thought. It's probably
>> not an overstatement to say that the universe is made up of numbers.
>
>These last two statements cannot be true simultaneously.
>
>If the universe is made up of numbers (or more accurately, mathematics), then
>numbers exist independently of our concept of them...they are real regardless
>of your beliefs or knowledge. As such, they cannot be "formalized thought"
>(since by definition they exist outside of thought).

I'd argue with that definition of thought. /Our/ thought, yes, but who
says thought is limited to us?

The distinction, I think, is that mathematics is what appears in a
portion of the universe that is modeling aspects of the whole: a
subset modeling the set of which it is a member. So, as usually
construed, is thought. Increase the size of the set so the subset is
the set, and the distinction between set and subset or mathematics or
thought and universe vanishes. The distinction is real, but so is the
fact that, underneath, they are all made of the same stuff, operating
according to the same laws.

>Indeed, mathematics are not said to be invented or developed, but discovered.

The same thing could be said of thought, couldn't it?

>Equally, unless one chooses to try discovering the physics of the mind
>(assuming its existence, which is not a given), philosophy is beyond numbers
>as well as logic...and science.

That distinction seems to me an artificial one created in the days
when our understanding of the basis of our own thought of the universe
was even more limited than it is today. But as things have transpired,
the province of things unexplained by science has been shrinking
rapidly, while the province of things that are satisfactorily
explained by some kind of metaphysical influence remains zero. And I
think that many philosophers would argue vociferously at the
proposition that philosophy is beyond logic. (I'm overlooking much of
postmodern philosophy, of course . . . )

>Which is why some physicists refer to string theories (which thus far provide
>no uniquely testable hypotheses) derogatorily as philosophy...merely a way of
>looking at the Universe...not science.

But "thus far" and "never" are very different creatures. I don't think
the universe cares much whether we can figure out how to test a
theory: it is either right or wrong. The absence of experimental
validation naturally makes physicists uncomfortable, lest they go off
on some intellectually elegant yet vacuous tangent. But Ptolemy's
system was based on careful observation, while the Special Theory of
Relativity had no direct experimental underpinning, since Einstein
wasn't at the time familiar with the Michelson-Morely experiment; he
derived SR from a contradiction between Maxwell's Equations and
Gallilean relativity.

And here's an observation -- which repeats what I said above -- that
crosses the boundaries between science and philosophy: the
"unreasonable" correspondence between physics and mathematics. It is
one of the reasons I've come to believe that, as I said above, the two
are not distinct: physics regularly pops out of mathematics, while
mathematics just as regularly pops out of physics. Perhaps, as Russell
and Whitehead argued, philosophy is not distinct either.

-- 
Josh

[Truly] I say to you, [...] angel [...] power will be able to see that [...]
these to whom [...] holy generations [...]. After Jesus said this, he departed.

- The Gospel of Judas
                             
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