Text 14526, 159 rader
Skriven 2007-04-23 09:13:00 av MICHAEL LOO (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av IAN HOARE
Ärende: kosher 408
==================
 -=> Ian Hoare said to Dave Drum <=-

 >I wonder if a Gentile can run a Kosher deli??? 
 IH> Not strictly, (and there's nothing more strictly than Kosher) no.
 IH> Because to cook and handle Kosher food you yourself have to be Kashrut,
 IH> and that implies all sorts of things.

Yes and no, mostly yes. In the rest of the messages I post today
I'll append little snippets of Jewish teaching regarding the
subject.

In a nutshell, various degrees of conservatism and orthodoxy require
different degrees of compliance. "Glatt" Kosher establishments hold
themselves to a higher standard than do others; others, well, I'd
imagine that the strictness depends on the availability of Jewish
labor. Expediency is of some nonzero value, after all.

-

 IH> And by the way, it takes no longer to bring a pint of milk to the boil
 IH> than it takes to bring a pint of tinned soup to the boil. Making the
 IH> roux is about as quick as opening the tin. So - without splitting hairs
 IH> it takes VERY little more time to make a real bechamel than to open a
 IH> tin.  

I think it's a perceptual issue (as I implied before) - the word
"bechamel" is enough to strike terror into the heart of a bachelor
in the kitchen, whereas "Campbell's cream of mushroom" is a most
welcome sound.

 -=> Dale Shipp said to Dave Sacerdote <=-

 DD> I wonder if a Gentile can run a Kosher deli??? 
 DSac> Nope.  There's more to it than meets the eye.  You could, however,
 DSac> run a damn fine Italian or German style deli and probably be every
 DSac> bit as successful.  Sounds like you certainly have a market for it
 DSac> in Springfield.
 DS> I am quite certain that Richard Douville worked and prepared kosher
 DS> food at a deli / lunch counter to the south of us in Silver Spring
 DS> Maryland.  I am also pretty certain that he is not jewish -- it was
 DS> a topic of discussion here at the time (ten years ago or so).

It's a complicated thing, and there is more to it than meets the eye.
For a strictly Kosher establishment, there cannot be non-Jews handling
food, with certain exceptions. Salted and pickled foods, raw veggies
that can be guaranteed insect-free (i.e., no salad prep), and "foods
that would not be served at a kingly table." There are Conservative
rabbis, I imagine, who would allow non-Jews to prepare food that was
previously certified as Kosher. I have cooked in Conservative Jewish
households: but in my friends Ellen and Joel's house, there is now
a certain squeamishness about letting me do anything beyond peeling
carrots, as Joel has gone further right-wing in his religion over
the years. Of course, this is a family that won't use the dishwasher
that came with the house for fear it had been used for non-Kosher
purposes sometime in the distant past (the modern view is that
running an empty cycle is enough to purify the appliance).

 -=> Dave Sacerdote said to Dale Shipp <=-

 DS> Okay, I'll modify my statement to: 
 DS> "I doubt that many goyim would have the knowledge to make it 
 DS> possible, or live in an area with a large enough Jewish population
 DS> to make it economically feasible; with a lot of work, study, and
 DS> the cooperation of the local rabbinical authority though, I suppose
 DS> it could be done."  

The local rabbinical authority isn't likely to be too nice
about this one unless there really aren't any Jews around
who could do the work.

 DS> And you won't be getting a Reuben there. [g]

I've had soy cheese. It tastes bad and greps me almost as
much as the real thing.

MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v7.07

      Title: Myra's Before-She-Kept-Kosher Pate
 Categories: Chicken, Appetizers, Jewish
   Servings: 2

    3/4 c  Butter or margarine
      1 lb Chicken livers
      1 md Onion, minced
      2 tb Brandy
    1/4 ts Salt
    1/8 ts Pepper

  Melt 1/4 cup butter in skillet over medium heat.  Add livers and onion and
  cook, stirring often, until livers are tender but still pink inside, about
  5 minutes.

  In blender or food processor blend liver-onion mixture until smooth,
  scrapping the sides occasionally.

  In same skillet, melt the remaining butter, adding to liver-onion mixture
  with remaining ingredients, blending well.  Pour into small bowl or crock,
  cover and refrigerate for several hours or overnight.

  Makes about 2 1/4 cups.

  M's note. The butter is replaceable with chicken fat
  ... and so it should be fairly
  easy to restore this recipe to a pristine Kosher condition.

  M's other note. Who's Myra?

MMMMM

Of course, the following essay might be tainted as it
was written by a woman rabbi; on the other hand, she
teaches at the premier rabbinic school in Israel ...

 The Talmud offers two reasons for the prohibition of
 eating the cooking of a non Jew had originally been
 given two reasons in the Talmud :
 - to avoid inter-marriage,
 - to avoid eating non kosher food.

 The risk of eating non kosher food still holds true
 today when you eat at non kosher facilities or at
 gentile's houses where the rules of kashrut are not
 known to the person who cooks.

 But as I understand your question, the issue is not
 about non kosher food, but about the cooking of kosher
 food by a non Jew.
 - The prohibition is not absolute. Historically the oil
 and the bread made by non Jews became permitted, mostly
 because the injunction was disregarded by the people,
 and also the Rabbis came to the conclusion that buying
 bread baked by a non Jew does not lead to intermarriage.
 - Some food even cooked by non Jews are permitted
 according to Halakha. For example, any food which is
 also eaten in the raw state, as cooked fruits or some
 cooked vegetables, is permitted. There is also the
 category of food that can be eaten which is "food
 which is not served in royal menus", the meaning of
 which is not entirely clear to me.
 - The Shulkhan Arukh, (not me or the Conservative
 Movement), states that one can be lenient in matters
 pertaining to Bishul Akum because it is not an
 interdiction from the Bible but "only derabanan"
 (Yoreh Deah 113: 16, also Talmud Avodah Zarah 38a).

 So, in your particular case, if you eat in your mother's
 home or at friend's, and you make sure the ingredients
 and the dishes are kosher, I would say that there is no
 problem that the food was cooked by a non Jew, because
 the two original reasons of the interdiction are not
 applicable. It would not lead you to inter-marriage,
 and nor bring you to eat non kosher food.

Rabbi Monique Susskind Goldberg
March 2005 
http://www.schechter.edu/askrabbi/kashrut_cookingnonjew2.htm
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
 * Origin: Doc's Place BBS Fido Since 1991 docsplace.tzo.com (1:123/140)