Text 18345, 165 rader
Skriven 2005-12-10 17:30:00 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
  Kommentar till text 18305 av FRANK SCHEIDT (1:123/140)
Ärende: Name-Calling
====================
 MVDV>> Vlist is difficult to pronounce?

 > More difficult than "List"  The "Vl" part is uncommon though,
 > of course, it exists.   Phonetically "travel" has  "vl" sound.

 MVDV>> Hmmm... the man from Newy York that called me the day before
 MVDV>> yesterday to lure me into some investment scheme din't seem
 MVDV>> to have that problem.

 > I suspect some of the most efficient Americans are those
 > engaged in criminal activities ... sad but true.  It's amazing
 > what some crooks can accomplish.

A crook? It was not my impression that this investment scheme was something
illegal. The man was very agressive. Didn't let me put a word in edge wise.
Only when he asked "fax or e-mail" did I get the chance to say something. he
wouldn't take no for a answser. Finally after I told him three times he got the
message and said "buy dude" and broke the connection.

Speaking about rude...

But not illegal....

 MVDV>> I never heard native English speakers complain. But.. I know better
 MVDV>> than to argue wit a native speaker, so if you say so, I will accept
 MVDV>> that at face value.

 > Complain about pronouncing your name?  I wouldn't *expect* any
 > complaints to be made.  After all, we're used to seeing names
 > of people with Eastern Europe ancestry who have complex names.
 > Polish names, for example, seem to lack enough vowels, yet
 > I've *never* heard anyone complain about that, even people reading
 > out a list of names with something like "Wlkrzowicz".  They'll
 > try to pronounce it, with the owner usually correcting them.

So what is the problem with "Vlist" then?

 MVDV>> But then I would not go for "List". If "vlist" is not good enough I
 MVDV>> might as well go for something completely different. Like "Clinton".
 MVDV>> ;-)

 > I merely suggested "List" since I know people with that name.

Ok.

 >> When immigrants change their names it's almost *always*
 >> to a name which is both easy to pronounce and to spell.  When
 >> *my* family immigrated here they didn't anglicize the name
 >> obviously.

 MVDV>> Obviously. I wonder what made them select the name in the first
 MVDV>> place...

 > In German, it has the meaning of separating or dividing

In that case it originally was "Scheide" and was mangled up over the years.
There is a german word "Scheit" which menas "block of wood". But "Scheidt" with
"dt" at the end does not exist in German.

In Dutch "scheit" mean "shit".

 > and is applied to someone living near a "separating line", i.e., a
 > border.

Or a watershed.

 > I suppose my long-forgotten ancestors lived near the
 > border of some country.  Maybe France since my father was born
 > near the French border.

I think the watershed is more likely. Scheide is used for natural divisions in
the landscape. The regular German word for a politcal boundery is "Grenze".

[ addressing people by their last name only ]

 > I'm puzzled why such usage in Europe would be considered insulting.

I thought I had already explained that: in the past it was used to address
someone lower in the pecking order. A landlord addressing his valet or an
employer adressing an employee.

Adressing an *equal* ths way was an insult as it implied that the caller
considered the callee his inferior.

These day it is considered politically incorrect to stress inequality. So
adressing someone with his last name only is a no-no.

 > After all, addressing you as "Vlist" *is* using your name.

No, that is using an abriviation of my name.

 > And one's *complete* name is seldom used.

Here the prefixes are NEVER ommited. So addressing me as just "Vlist" would be
a double insult.

Well, almost. There are always exceptions. It *can* be a term of endearment. My
mother sometimes called me "Vlist" when she had something of importance to say
to me. Very occasionally she still does. But then mothers are special aren't
they?

 > There's a movie star (from years back) with the name Van Johnson,
 > but "Van", I suppose, is considered his *given* name as I've never
 > seen any other first name for him.

How about "Van Halen"?

Or "van Helsen" ;-)

 >>> So if someone comes here from Europe wanting to insult me for
 >>> some reason, then addresses me by my last name he'd be mighty
 >>> disappointed ... heh heh heh ...

 MVDV>>> The reverse is worse. Making an innocent remark that comes
 MVDV>>> across as an insult. When you ever come to The Netherlands,
 MVDV>>> I advise against addressing people by their last name *only*.
 >
 > Many years ago I had a man from Holland working for me during
 > the summer.  He was a student in the Netherlands.  His name was
 > Herb Slaats.

Forgive me for being arrogant, but I suspect "Herb" was not his real name, nor
the name that he used in The Netherlands. "Herbert" is a common name here, but
I have never anyone hear abbreviating it to "Herb". Not here. I think he
followed that American custom to fit in.

That does not mean that names are *never* abbriviated here. In fact it is quit
common. "Johannes" is commonly called "Hans" or "Johan". "Diederik" is called
"Dirk" and "Hendrik" is often called "Henk". But not "Herb", never heard it.
These customs are difficult to explain.

 > We always called *him* "Herb" so he wasn't inadvertently
 > insulted while working here.

When he came for the first time did he say something like "call me Herb"?

 > OTOH he used to give a hilarious imitation of how the average
 > Netherlands citizen viewed a "typical" American.

You should hear what we think the average American sees a "typical" Dutchman.
In wooden shoes standing before a windmill...

 > That, if taken seriously, would have been considered a strong
 > insult, however we all thought it was funny.

One should not take these acts serious....

 > So whether a given act is insulting depends largely upon the
 > opinion of the "victim" ...

Of course...

 >> I seldom do that in any event ...

 MVDV>> You might do it accidentally as you are unaware that it is
 MVDV>> insultive.

 > True ...

But now you have been warned. ;)

Cheers, Michiel

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