Text 18305, 154 rader
Skriven 2005-12-10 04:51:00 av FRANK SCHEIDT (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av MICHIEL VAN DER VLIST
Ärende: Name-Calling
====================
-=> Quoting Michiel Van Der Vlist to Frank Scheidt <=-

 >> How would an immigrant named "Michiel Van Der Vlist" likely
 >> "Anglicize" *that* name here?
 MVDV> [..]
 >> Possibly "Michael List", for example.

 MVDV>> Dropping the 'V'? Not likely.
 
 > I disagree.  "List" is easy to spell and pronounce while "Vlist" isn't.

 MVDV> Vlist is difficult to pronounce? 

More difficult than "List"  The "Vl" part is uncommon though, of 
course, it exists.   Phonetically "travel" has  "vl" sound.

 MVDV> Hmmm... the man from Newy York that
 MVDV> called me the day before yesterdat to lure me into some investment
 MVDV> scheme din't seem to have that problem.

I suspect some of the most efficient Americans are those engaged 
in criminal activities ... sad but true.  It's amazing what some 
crooks can accomplish.

 MVDV> I never heard native English speakers complain. But.. I know better
 MVDV> than to argue wit a native speaker, so if you say so, I will accept
 MVDV> that at face value.

Complain about pronouncing your name?  I wouldn't *expect* any 
complaints to be made.  After all, we're used to seeing names of 
people with Eastern Europe ancestry who have complex names.  
Polish names, for example, seem to lack enough vowels, yet I've 
*never* heard anyone complain about that, even people reading 
out a list of names with something like "Wlkrzowicz".  They'll 
try to pronounce it, with the owner usually correcting them.

What I said is true.  I cannot put a percentage on the usage, 
though.
 
 MVDV> But then I would not go for "List". If "vlist" is not good enough I
 MVDV> might as well go for something completely different. Like "Clinton".
 MVDV> ;-) 

I merely suggested "List" since I know people with that name.

 MVDV> Purely hyphothical of course. I am not coming to the US.
 
 > When immigrants change their names it's almost *always*
 > to a name which is both easy to pronounce and to spell.  When
 > *my* family immigrated here they didn't anglicize the name
 > obviously.

 MVDV> Obviously. I wonder what made them select the name in the first
 MVDV> place... 

In German, it has the meaning of separating or dividing and is 
applied to someone living near a "separating line", i.e., a 
border.  I suppose my long-forgotten ancestors lived near the 
border of some country.  Maybe France since my father was born 
near the French border.

 >> And as a *new* immigrant that would pose no special problem
 >> for he'd not have a long history of activities here using
 >> his original name.

 MVDV>> Yes, I can see that...

 MVDV>> In these time of global communication however, peole would
 MVDV>> not start completely from scracth however. They have written
 MVDV>> articles, obtained degrees, etc, etc..
 
 > True.  Things are a bit more complex than they were when many
 > immigrants came over in sailing ships.

 MVDV> How true. The world has changed a lot since then.

 MVDV> [..]
 
 >> I presume it's widespread for I know a number of people who
 >> are addressed routinely by their last name.

 MVDV>> I find that very odd. If it really is common, why have I
 MVDV>> *never* heard it in American movies or TV series?
 
 > I have no idea ... don't misunderstand me, though, usually
 > people do *not* address others by their surnames, however a
 > *lot* of people do.  I can't come up with a percentage.  Maybe
 > movies and TV are trying to do what *most* people do, use the
 > first name, or the surname with "Mr." or the equivalent.

I have another explanation for that lack of usage in TV and 
movies:  They *seldom* represent *real* life here.  Anyone who 
judges America by TV and/or movie representation is in for a 
*shock* if he actually *comes* here.
 
MVDV> Given the flood of US material that we are subject too, I would have
 MVDV> expected to hear it ar least occasionally if it really was not
 MVDV> uncommon. Oh wel... 

It exists ... I've been thinking of the custom and can recall 
*several* such usages when I was in the Army as well as when I 
was in high school and college.  In fact, my roommate in college 
was called by his surname by *everyone* ...

I'm puzzled why such usage in Europe would be considered 
insulting.  After all, addressing you as "Vlist" *is* using your 
name.  And one's *complete* name is seldom used.  There's a movie 
star (from years back) with the name Van Johnson, but "Van", I 
suppose, is considered his *given* name as I've never seen any 
other first name for him.

 >> Even in *my* case among the many neighbors I knew as a child
 >> there was one family in which the people addressed me *always*
 >> using my last name only -- and they were *friends*.

 MVDV>> Addressing a child with his last name is even weirder to me...
 
 > They did that for *years* well into my adulthood ... it meant
 > nothing special to me ...

 MVDV> Of course. For a child it becomes normal when regularly confronted
 MVDV> with it. 

OK ...

 >> So if someone comes here from Europe wanting to insult me for
 >> some reason, then addresses me by my last name he'd be mighty
 >> disappointed ... heh heh heh ...

 MVDV>> The reverse is worse. Making an innocent remark that comes
 MVDV>> across as an insult. When you ever come to The Netherlands,
 MVDV>> I advise against addressing people by their last name *only*.
 
Many years ago I had a man from Holland working for me during the 
summer.  He was a student in the Netherlands.  His name was Herb 
Slaats.  We always called *him* "Herb" so he wasn't inadvertently 
insulted while working here.  OTOH he used to give a hilarious 
imitation of how the average Netherlands citizen viewed a 
"typical" American.  That, if taken seriously, would have been 
considered a strong insult, however we all thought it was funny.  
So whether a given act is insulting depends largely upon the 
opinion of the "victim" ...

 > I seldom do that in any event ...

 MVDV> You might do it accidentally as you are unaware that it is insultive.
 
True ...

... Counterpoint the surrealism of the underlying metaphor ...

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