Text 26045, 164 rader
Skriven 2006-03-01 12:20:08 av Roy Witt (1:1/22)
  Kommentar till text 26016 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Elist
=============
01 Mar 06 10:21, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Roy Witt:


 MvdV>>> What is false about my statement that I believe the e-list was
 MvdV>>> abused in regard with ZCC_PUBLIC?

 >> Nothing. You are correct; the elist was abused by someone
 >> other than the elist keeper.

 MvdV> The e-list keeper was an assessor in the abuse.

I'll have to agree on that, after reviewing the history behind it. Adrian
Walker was the elist keeper at the time. Thom's list didn't appear for
two months (August) after the echo was listed in June of 1998. I believe
he was between a rock and a hard place, trying to get his elist together
and it took a while for the listing to be corrected. Thom didn't interfere
with the listing, at least not until sometime in 1999 (that's still under
review).

 >>>> The entire ZCC_PUBLIC thing happened before Thom became the Elist
 >>>> Keeper.

 MvdV>>> No.

Yes. Find and read Fidonews, June 8 and June 15, 1998.

 >> Correct. Thom was well established as the elist keeper when
 >> this incident occured.

 MvdV> So at least we agree om that.

No, after reviewing the history on it, I have to retract that statement.

ZCC-PUBLIC was listed while Adrian Walker was the elist keeper. The echo
was elisted with your Z2 elist keeper at the time, but Ward refused to
list it in Z1, because he thought the Z2 list would be the successor to
Adrian Walker's list.

 MvdV>>> The conflict only arose when a Z1 sysop (Bob Moravsik IIRC) was
 MvdV>>> listed in Thom's list as moderator

 >> Not quite. Moravsik listed himself as moderator of that echo,

 MvdV> It has been established that the e-list keeper manually reviews
 MvdV> applications before having his software process it.

Thom does, yes. But Adrian Walker never did.

 MvdV> He has been known to occasionally set aside applications on the
 MvdV> basis of knowledge that came to him by channels outside the
 MvdV> application procedure.

Which is irrelevant, in light of the present understanding of the subject
of how ZCC-PUBLIC was elisted.

 MvdV> So it is the e-list keeper that decides who get listed and who
 MvdV> doesn't.

Well, it is his list. He decides what can be listed and what can't be
listed. He decides how it is to be formatted, etc ... example: at one
time, in retaliation for your attempt to hi-jack the HAM echo, I presented
the elist with entrys for your echoes, the ones you moderate in Holland.
Because Thom reviews each listing before it gets to the robot, your echoes
were safe from being hijacked.

 MvdV> No one can list oneself, one has to pass the filter of the e-list
 MvdV> keeper's approval.

Wrong. FN_SYSOP makes a good example of how much you're mistaken. The echo
rules stated that the moderator was elected at a certain time of year. A
rebel movement circumvented the echo rules and Thom was forced to give up
the password to the echolisting under pressure from, well you know who.

 >> because Ward Dossche failed to do so.

 MvdV> There was no "failure" as there is no obligation for a moderator to
 MvdV> take steps to get his echo listed in whatever e-list.

Ward announced the echo's existance in Fidonews, January, 1998. He listed
the echo in the Z2 echolist...it may not have been required, but the
echolist, as well as Fidonews, was and is a useful tool to advertise the
existance of the echo.

 >> As long as the echo was confined to distribution in Z2, that
 >> was ok. But when he asked that it be distributed in Z1, it
 >> became an issue.

 MvdV> It only became an issue because the e-list keeper listed someone
 MvdV> other that the one he knew to be the moderator.

No he didn't, the person who lists the echo determines who is moderator.

 MvdV>>>  while it was clear that Ward as the creator of the echo had
 MvdV>>> prior rights.

 >> And in this case, the distribution systems in Z1 took care of
 >> the problem by denying Moravsik's claim as moderator. It still
 >> belonged to Ward.

 MvdV> And so the distributors did the right thing.

Perhaps. I'd say that the person who created the echo had some influence
in their decision to ignore the Z1 elisting.  That and the reputation of
the listed moderator.

 MvdV> That does not change the fact that the e-list was abused.

You'd have to talk to Adrian Walker about that. Knowing his political
ties, I'd say it had a lot to do with Fidonet politics than anything else.

 >>>>   That case and the others you site are not the fault of the
 >>>> Elist that Thom maintains.

 MvdV>>> In my opinion the e-list was abused.

See above.

 >> According to the rules set up by the elist keeper, what happened was
 >> within the rules.

 MvdV> Then those rules are wrong as they allow abuse.

It's not the fault of an elist keeper if moderators don't keep their
listings current. Once the tag is dropped from the elist, it's free to be
used by anyone who so desires. That rule keeps moderators on their toes,
and it helps to keep the 'deadwood' out of the list. Deadwood is one of
the elist keepers pet peaves.

 MvdV> But... we all know the e-list keeper does not stick to his own
 MvdV> rules.

That's the elist keepers main problem, he does stick to his own rules.

 MvdV> He manually reviews applications and refuses some that
 MvdV> according to his own rules are ok.

None that I've ever seen. The current Fidonews editor didn't try to list
this echo according to the elist rules and guess what, he's not the
elisted moderator because of it.  And you and I have already agreed that
anyone who can read for comprehension can do amazing things after reading
the instructions. Except for Felon, of course.

 >> Nothing is ever perfect and that Moravsik could list the
 >> echo was one of those things no one can do anything about;
 >> save for the elist keeper himself.

 MvdV> The e-list keeper was biased.

Agreed, Adrian Walker was biased. He wanted his successor to prevail in
the upcoming elist wars. Instead, Thom LaCosta won out by virtue of the
moderators who put their trust in him and not the Z2 elist heir.

 MvdV>>> So now we have exchanged opinions. Again. Did it lead anywhere?

 >> Yes. It made for more traffic in a dying fidonet.

 MvdV> Hmmm... yes, ther is that...

We agree again...:o)


Roy
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