Text 26061, 151 rader
Skriven 2006-03-02 20:09:00 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
  Kommentar till text 26045 av Roy Witt (1:1/22)
Ärende: Elist
=============
 MvdV>> So it is the e-list keeper that decides who get listed and who
 MvdV>> doesn't.

 > Well, it is his list. He decides what can be listed and what
 > can't be listed. He decides how it is to be formatted, etc ...

And that is exactly the problem. He is a dictator accountable to no one. And
that doesn't just apply to Thom's list, it applied to many other lists that we
had in the past as well.

If there are no checks and balances and something is run by a dictator, sooner
or later there will be abuse.

 > example: at one time, in retaliation for your attempt to hi-jack
 > the HAM echo, I presented the elist with entrys for your echoes,
 > the ones you moderate in Holland.

The Netherlands.

 > Because Thom reviews each listing before it gets to the robot,
 > your echoes were safe from being hijacked.

There were never in danger of being hijacked. Had your attempt to have yourself
listed in Thom's list, there would have been zero consequences. Everyone here
knows I am the moderator, no one would have recognised you as moderator no
matter what Thom's list says.

 >>> because Ward Dossche failed to do so.

 MvdV>> There was no "failure" as there is no obligation for a moderator to
 MvdV>> take steps to get his echo listed in whatever e-list.

 > Ward announced the echo's existance in Fidonews, January, 1998.

Thereby letting the world know he was the creator and therefore the moderator.

 > He listed the echo in the Z2 echolist...it may not have been required,

It is not required. Period.

 > but the echolist, as well as Fidonews, was and is a useful tool to
 > advertise the existance of the echo.

"Useful" is in the eye of the beholder.

 MvdV>>>>  while it was clear that Ward as the creator of the echo had
 MvdV>>>> prior rights.

 >>> And in this case, the distribution systems in Z1 took care of
 >>> the problem by denying Moravsik's claim as moderator. It still
 >>> belonged to Ward.

 MvdV>> And so the distributors did the right thing.

 > Perhaps. I'd say that the person who created the echo had some
 > influence in their decision to ignore the Z1 elisting.

Perhaps. OTOH, the problem may never have been arisen in the first place, had
it not been a high profile person.

 > That and the reputation of the listed moderator.

That, I know nothing about.

 MvdV>> That does not change the fact that the e-list was abused.

 > You'd have to talk to Adrian Walker about that. Knowing his
 > political ties, I'd say it had a lot to do with Fidonet politics
 > than anything else.

I have no desire to talk to Afriam Walker. It is water under the bridge.


 >>> According to the rules set up by the elist keeper, what happened
 >>> was within the rules.

 MvdV>> Then those rules are wrong as they allow abuse.

 > It's not the fault of an elist keeper if moderators don't keep
 > their listings current.

It is the job of the echolist keeper to keep the list as accurate as he can. It
has to reflect reality, not create it. There is no obligation for a moderator
to do the job of the e-list keeper for him. Not in Z1 and not in Z2.

 > Once the tag is dropped from the elist, it's free to be
 > used by anyone who so desires.

And that is the flaw. It should not be possible to hijack an echo by hijacking
the tag.

 > That rule keeps moderators on their toes,

In Z2 we have an echomail policy to take care of that. In Z1 an e-list keeper
that isn't even part of FidoNet has no bussines chasing moderators with a stick
and a carrot.

 > and it helps to keep the 'deadwood' out of the list. Deadwood
 > is one of the elist keepers pet peaves.

There is a much simpler way of dealing with the dead wood: do away with the
list alltogether.

 MvdV>> But... we all know the e-list keeper does not stick to his own
 MvdV>> rules.

 > That's the elist keepers main problem, he does stick to his
 > own rules.

He does not. He refused Björn's entry because of an arbitrary rule that didn't
exist before and was made up for the occasion.

 MvdV>> He manually reviews applications and refuses some that
 MvdV>> according to his own rules are ok.

 > None that I've ever seen.

Then open your eyes.

 > The current Fidonews editor didn't try to list this echo
 > according to the elist rules and guess what, he's
 > not the elisted moderator because of it.

He got fed up with Thom playing silly games and turned away from the e-list.

 > And you and I have already agreed that anyone who can read for
 > comprehension can do amazing things after reading
 > the instructions.

I have agreed to nothing like that.

 MvdV>> The e-list keeper was biased.

 > Agreed, Adrian Walker was biased.

And so is Thom.

 MvdV>>>> So now we have exchanged opinions. Again. Did it lead anywhere?

 >>> Yes. It made for more traffic in a dying fidonet.

 MvdV>> Hmmm... yes, ther is that...

 > We agree again...:o)

;-)

Cheers, Michiel

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