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Text 36425, 176 rader
Skriven 2006-08-09 14:16:10 av Roy Witt (1:397/22)
  Kommentar till text 36330 av Carol Shenkenberger (6:757/1)
Ärende: CELEBRATION!
====================
09 Aug 06 18:56, Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Roy Witt:

 CS> *** Quoting Roy Witt from a message to Carol Shenkenberger ***

 RW>> to the idea because you're among those who were the victims and you
 RW>> ha always had a problem with Frank's opinions.

 CS> This is true probably.  Frank irks me with his insensitivity in ways
 CS> that you do not.  Franks' seems genuine, yours seems 'tounge in
 CS> cheek' most of the time.

Frank is merely expressing his version of free speech. Telling it like it
is maybe irksome to a lot of people, but he has a right to his opinion.
That some are upset about his opinion isn't his fault, they've been
brainwashed to think in Politically Correct terms. The truth hurts those
who think of themselves as being PC dealing with those who're only telling
it like it is, from their perspective.

 RW>> We only had the atomic bomb for less than a month when it was used
 RW>> for two purposes, to demonstrate it to the world as a deterent for
 RW>> further conflict, as the Russkies would have done, had there not
 RW>> been that deterent. The other was to try and save as many allied,
 RW>> and Japanese, lives as possible. An invasion of Japan would have
 RW>> been more desastero than those two bombs, for both sides.

 CS> Probably true.  I've seen movies of Truman where saving even the
 CS> Japanese were in mind as a portion of the decision.  I do not know if
 CS> that is true, but I'd like to think so.  To not 'dance' but to
 CS> understand the need of the time.

You have to remember that Truman had a lot on his plate. He was thinking
of the future as well as the present. Probably with a view to the past as
well, thinking in 'what if' terms and how we could have made things
different. And then there was the relevation to Churchill about the bomb
and the decision to keep Stalin in the dark. Nobody trusted Stalin, as
you're probably well aware.

 RW>> Let's let Frank make an explanation of his post before passing
 RW>> judemen

 CS> I'm not always forgiving but if i see his reply, I will at least read
 CS> it.

Ok.

 RW>> On the first mission, Hiroshima was the primary target, Kokura was
 RW>> the secondary choice and Nagasaki the third.

 CS> Humm. I'm going to have to do a little search.  I've been told here,
 CS> the shipyard was a main target.  Far more 'military' and Kokura?

Kokura had one of the largest munitions plants in Japan. Nagasaki made
the list because Gen'l Groves wanted Kyoto, a major industrial city, on
the list, but he was overruled by Sec Stimson who replaced Kyoto with
Nagasaki because Kyoto was of religious and historical significance to
Japan, being the former capitol.

 RW>> backup. Niigata was too far away to be a practical third choice.
 RW>> Becau Nagasaki was on the opposite side of a Kyushu mountain range
 RW>> from Koku military planners thought even if one city was fogged in,
 RW>> the other wa likely to be clear. They were correct in that
 RW>> assumption, as history b out.

 CS> Grin, you just described Sasebo best as i can tell from a map and the
 CS> view from my window.

Which tells me that the military planners must have known what they were
doing... :o)

 CS>> much later, perhaps 6 months later, of his personal history and that
 CS>> he was 7 years old when it happened).

 RW>> Which probably led to his demeanor at the news of 9/11...he knows
 RW>> what it's like to lose so many loved one all at the same time.

 CS> Yes.  I never claimd to be a brain child.  Even I could see that.  On
 CS> 9/11 the local response was immediate and very sincere.  I was stuck
 CS> on the ship and Don was out at our 'cho' (apartment/neighborhood).
 CS> As the food ran down, he took our spare change in yen (base was
 CS> closed, no access to a bank and they do not use checks here) and they
 CS> just filled his cart taking 10yen for a 500yen fish and so on and
 CS> refusing more.  Just 'pretending it was excess' and stuffing
 CS> Charlotte (in tow, she was 7 then) at every place with anything they
 CS> had handy.

They sound like very nice people. The only experience I have with Japanese
is very little; I used to get my hair cut in a shop up the street from
mine and all of the gals were Japanese. Nice girls and they treated their
customers like their own family. Nancy had a Japanese friend that she
talked about and with constantly while we lived in SD. And the next door
lady in Mira Mesa, one of the nicest I've met.

 CS> My experience with that was vicarious but all of us report the same.
 CS> Me? I was stuck on the ship for a week or 2.  Worried about my family
 CS> and at that time, Don couldnt email me.

No phones I take it or you were out to sea.

 CS> 'Gomen Nasai' kicked in and all of us were excused rent if we had not
 CS> yet paid up for the following month.  (we made it up when we could
 CS> get to the bank again but if we had not, we were excused').

 CS> As you can guess, my personal 9/11 experience was not the same as the
 CS> USA people had there.  When I think back on it, all I can say is
 CS> 'wow' about how my local area supported me and my family.

 CS> (BTW, yet another use of Gomen Nasai there, this one may be a local
 CS> and did not imply personal guilt, but a sorrow to be held and a
 CS> desire to help).

 CS>> If you dislike that I feel this way, well, we can 'just not bring it
 CS>> up again' because on this one, you'll find out i'm more stubborn
 CS>> than a mule and will not change.  I may change on many things, but
 CS>> this isnt one of them.  I will never 'celebrate' the day we nuked
 CS>> Japan.

 RW>> I never asked you to, all I suggested was to look at it from a
 RW>> differe viewpoint, put yourself in the shoes of those who
 RW>> experienced WW2 firs hand, or at least lived thru that time and have
 RW>> a different life experience than you do.

 CS> Ok, I'll keep it in mind.  But I think this many years later he'd
 CS> have lost that 'first response before they knew full impact' and be
 CS> more (humm right word escapes me) 'sane' in expression as well as
 CS> feeling.

Perhaps you were looking for humane. I've met a lot of people from that
era who hold a grudge against the Japanese for their 'sneak' attack on
Pearl, and a lot of other atrocities they did to Americans (Bataan,
Midway, etc). I worked with a survivor of Pearl Harbor who was on board
one of the battleships that survived the bombing, but was part of the
rescue team who tried to extract the sailors trapped in the capsized
Oklahoma. His ship was the next one shoreside to it. He held a grudge for
as long as he lived and let everyone know it. BTW, he was also on board
the Missouri when the Japanese surrendered. He showed me a picture once
and pointed himself out in the crowd of white uniforms on the upper deck.

 CS>> My father fought in WWII.  Radio operator, Europe.  Born just as
 CS>> they arrived here of first immigrant parents.  Fluent german.  I
 CS>> didnt get much time with him as my parents split when I was 2 but
 CS>> the few visits did talk of that time a little bit.  His comment was
 CS>> 'the worst I did was shoot a person who had a gun aimed at me, never
 CS>> dropped any bombs I have to have nightmares about now'. I know, he
 CS>> meant that set. I just know...


 RW>> My father made it in time to spend 13 months in the aftermath of the
 RW>> w The Germans surrendered while he was on board a troop ship in the
 RW>> Atlantic. I never figured him for a passionate man, but he told
 RW>> storie the suffereing of the people and the ways he helped them, in
 RW>> spite of orders. He was a guard at a German supply dump, where there
 RW>> was all ki of food and clothing that was denied the public. He left
 RW>> the gates unlocked and turned his back as those in need entered and
 RW>> helped themselves.

 CS> Good man.  My father was there.  He told me he fought in the battle
 CS> of the buldge (damn, another word I cant spell!).  Came in around

Bulge

 CS> 1943 I think he said?  He's gone now, so I cant ask him.  Lord rest
 CS> him, but he died in 2002 and his mind was 'dimmer dark' from 1998 so
 CS> suffered little.  A good man though from all I ever knew of him.

 CS> Smile, perhaps thats a pretty good way to go.  To have a child of
 CS> yours who parted due to things beyond your control at age 2, still
 CS> recall you as a good man.
 CS>                                        xxcarol

Yeup...at least he'll live on as long as you remember him.

               R\%/itt


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