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Möte FIDONEWS_OLD1, 49742 texter
 lista första sista föregående nästa
Text 36741, 372 rader
Skriven 2006-08-14 12:51:00 av BOB KLAHN (1:123/140)
     Kommentar till en text av ROSS CASSELL
Ärende: Hezbolla
================
 BK>>  Your point? I was rebutting what he said, whether conservative,
 BK>>  libertarian, or pastafarian, he was wrong.

 RC> Thats your opinion..

 DUH!

 Of course, there is the fact that I backed up *MY OPINION* with
 facts.

 RC> Since you cannot always be right, all of the time, then
 RC> your assertion that he is wrong cannot be stated as a fact
 RC> or are you going to make an exception this time by telling
 RC> me that you are always right?

 I only have to be right this one time. Which I am, according to
 the *EVIDENCE*.

 RC>>> got your mentally retarded liberal panties all twisted in a
 RC>>> wad.. Typical of you Klahn.

 BK>>  Injustice and fraud and deception and lies has a negative effect
 BK>>  on me. People who spread hate on the basis of lies have a
 BK>>  negative effect on me.

 RC> Apparently you have no issues with what you spew?

 It is correct that I have no issues with the truth.

 BK>>  Perhaps you are too morally retarded to understand that.

 RC> I have far more morality in my left pinky than you will
 RC> ever have in your fat liberal little body.

 You just contradicted yourself in that sentence. Let's see if
 you are bright enought to figure it out.

 BK>>  You think Isarelis are little godlings, who are incapable of
 BK>>  doing wrong. The people are lied to just like they are here. And
 BK>>  they are deceived. The government of Israel misleads as part of
 BK>>  their power game.

 RC> You are projecting, my position is simple, I dont blame

 Damn! You really pretend to know what that means? Or did you
 just ignore the fact that you started this exchange by doing
 exactly that?

 RC> Israel for their actions, be it the people of Israel or
 RC> their govt and since the govt of Israel is comprised from
 RC> the people of Israel, with its Parliament being freely
 RC> elected by the people I am not going to do the hair
 RC> splitting you attempt to do.

 The government of every democracy is elected by the people. That
 doesn't change the fact that sometimes they do wrong, and when
 they do, it's quite often the govt that goes against the will of
 the people. Or lies to them.

 RC> I dont blame them one bit, when surrounded by vicious
 RC> wolves, one has to protect oneself.

 Paranoia is not a good basis for national policy. Protecting
 oneself does not justify striking out wildly and visciously
 against the innocent.

 You deleted, and ignored this part of my original post. Seems
 whatever Wolves Israel is surrounded by, Lebanon and Hizballah
 are not numbered among them.

 **************************************************************************

 RC> Q: Has Hezbollah acted on that goal with aggressive,
 RC> military action?

 RC> A: Yes, with just enough frequency to satisfy its sponsors
 RC> (Iran, Syria) and enough infrequency to avoid an all-out
 ...

 Actually, apparently no. In searching the web for this, I found
 exactly 1 attack on Israeli terrority since 2001, before July 11
 2006, listed as "Hizballah sponsored". That was in early 2002,
 between two Kibbutz. The Kibbutz Hanita was identified with
 this. I don't know what "Hizballah sponsored" means, and I have
 found little on this.

 My main source is the Israli web site for the "Jerusleum Center
 for Public Affairs." The article was written in 2003 by an
 Israeli Military reserve colonel. I have found nothing since
 then. That site is the source for much of what I am posting. The
 spelling I am using, Hizballah, is the spelling used by the US
 State Dept and Isreali sources I have found.

 The site lists two other incidents, one in the Palestinian
 refugee camp at Jenin, which is in the West Bank, *NOT* Israeli
 territory, the other in the Sheeba Farms, territory that was
 disputed between Lebanon and Syria, but Syria has yielded their
 claim to Lebanon. In any case, it is *NOT* Israeli territory.

 In the July incident, the Hizballah mortar attack did not kill
 one single Israeli civilian. All the casualties were military.
 As to where it took place, I have seen numerous references,
 including the first reference in Forbes, that said it was in
 Lebanon, not Isreal. I have not found anything definitive on
 that yet.

 **************************************************************************

 Over and over I see Hizballah *THREATENS* Israel, not by any
 word or dead, but simply by possessing rockets. In the meantime
 Israel has vastly more firepower, yet isn't this a threat to
 Lebanon? Remember, these are largely Israeli websites.

 BK>>  The reality is, Israel has done wrong in the past. The reality
 BK>>  is Israel has done great evil in the past. Look at the
 BK>>  refugee camps of Shatila and Shabra they acted as guards while
 BK>>  allowing the Christian militia to conduct a massacre of women
 BK>>  and children. They attacked the Liberty, which they say was a
 BK>>  mistake, but they made repeated attacks on a ship flying the
 BK>>  American Flag with no attempt to determine if it was friendly or
 BK>>  hostile.

 RC> Whatever, you can recriminate all day and all night long
 RC> about the past, we the USA have plenty to be ashamed of, we
 RC> shot down an Iranian jet, several times in the early parts
 RC> of the cold war we had bombers stray from patrol routes and
 RC> infiltrate USSR airspace unintentionally, could have
 RC> started armageddon? WE used to and probably still do fly
 RC> our U2's over other countries to spy on them..

 The Iranian jet is the only one up there I will give you is
 wrong. The rest is diversionary BS. You divert to avoid the part
 you deleted, the real moral issue.

 Restored from previous msgs. Notice, this is not just what
 happened in the past, but what they are doing in this invasion.

 **************************************************************************

 They attacked a UN Refugee site in '96, and in the current
 hostilities they attacked a UN observation post, and killed 4
 observers. The claim is that Hizballah was using it as a shield,
 but the observers were under attack for 6 hours, before they
 were hit and killed. In that time they and their superiors made
 repeated calls to their Isreali contacts to tell them there were
 no Hizballah in the area. Further, after they outpost was hit,
 the UN commanders arranged with Israeli authorities to send a
 convoy to check on the outpost, when they lost contact. The
 convoy was attacked. Isreali artillary had previously targeted
 Hizballah sites near the post, and the UN observers had reported
 that fact. However, this time there were no Hizballah in the
 area. Some former observers stationed at that post believe the
 attack was deliberate to prevent the UN Observers from doing
 their job of reporting Isreali movements and attacks. Since the
 post was decades old, well known to Israel, and well marked,
 they make a strong arguement.

 Others believe it was another attack on Hizballah forces near
 the post, only it was a mistake because there were no such
 forces there. That arguement is reasonable, except for the hours
 of UN pleading for a halt to the attack. That strongly suggests
 that decades of garrison duty has so compromised Isreali command
 and control as to make them an undisplined occupation force.

 **************************************************************************

 RC> Recriminate all you like boy, the past is engraved in stone.

 His, and your, entire arguement is based on the past, on
 history, on the history of the establishment of Isreal. Only
 his and your history is also based on a fraudulent history of
 Hizbalah and the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. As below.

 You used this as your reply to the UN not recognizing border
 change by force.

 **************************************************************************

 RC> Well, we took an awful amount of territory from Spain in a
 RC> war that had questionable justification and our military
 RC> still is stationed in territory belonging to former enemy
 RC> states from a world war.

 **************************************************************************

 RC>>> You wont admit that Israel didnt create its problems, that

 BK>>  I'm sure Israel didn't creat most of it's problems, anymore than
 BK>>  Lebanon created most of it's problems, or the US created most of
 BK>>  our problems. However, that isn't what we are talking about.
 BK>>  What we are talking about is Isreal attacking a country that had
 BK>>  most of it's problems caused by the outside world, including
 BK>>  Isreal in particular, putting them under foreign control and
 BK>>  letting their ability to function as a country be destroyed.

 RC> You forget Syrias involvement in Lebanon..

 No, I didn't. But you may have. After all, if Syria and Iran are
 pulling Hizbalah's strings, as claimed by Israel, then punishing
 Lebanon is shown to be truly evil. Why doesn't Israel punish
 Iran and Syria? Maybe because Iran and Syria are a real danger
 to Israel, esp since the Shah was overthrown and Iraq is no
 longer a counterbalance to Iran. Whether they can defeat Israel
 is irrelevant. It's the ability to inflict great damage that
 counts.

 From immediately above.

 **************************************************************************
 BK>>  most of it's problems caused by the outside world, including
 BK>>  Isreal in particular, putting them under foreign control and
 BK>>  letting their ability to function as a country be destroyed.
 **************************************************************************

 Israel occupied the south, left the rest to Syria. It was
 Israel's destruction of Lebanon's ability to run itself that
 left open the occupation by Syria.

 RC> As a country Lebanon let things evolve as they did simply
 RC> by letting itself become infested with all those terror
 RC> groups hellbent on the destruction of the country to its
 RC> south.

 You ignore the reality. I reminded you of reality, but you
 didn't dispute it, just ignored it. Again, Lebanon had no choice
 in the matter. Had the West backed up the govt of Lebanon it
 might have been a different matter. We didn't Israel didn't.
 Lebanon didn't get much choice.

 RC> If we had a right to go into Afghanistan and punish the
 RC> Taliban for not doing anything about Al Queda, then Israel

 Which didn't happen. What did happen was, the US went into
 afghanistan because Afghanistan actively hosted a terrorist
 organization they had full capability to expel, or destroy.

 That was justified.

 RC> has the same exact right to take the reprisals against
 RC> Lebanon for not containing the Hezbollah. Maybe even moreso

 Israel has zero right to take reprisals against Lebanon, first
 because they are punishing the civilian population, second
 because the govt of Lebanon did not have the capability to
 remove Hizbalah. That last has been admitted by Israel, but you,
 in your high and mighty morality, have ignored rather than
 respond to.

 RC> when you consider Lebanon and Israel are neighbors and
 RC> Afghanistan and the USA are not.

 When you consider that Lebanon has no record of attacks on
 Isreal, and Hizbalah is only accused of one "sponsored" attack
 since 2001, your entire line of justification is revealed as
 false.

 BK>>  If Isreal expects Lebanon to control and disarm Hizballah then
 BK>>  Isreal must allow Lebanon to develop a military force sufficient
 BK>>  to accomplish that goal. That's how it works. There is no other
 BK>>  way.

 RC> So in the interim, all the people in Northern Israel must
 RC> leave their homes out of Hezbollah missile range, right Bob?

 So, in the interim all the people of Southern Lebanon must leave
 their homes out of Israeli air attack and artillary range? Oh,
 there is no where out of range of Israeli attack.

 Then again, it was Olmert who said no one ever died from being
 uncomfortable.

 However, since Hizbalah didn't launch it's rocket attacks
 against Israel until after Israel attacked Lebanon, your comment
 above is diversionary BS.

 RC>>> beloved organization of yours known as the United Nations

 BK>>  Another lie on your part.

 RC> You mean you dont see the UN as the answer to all the
 RC> worlds problems, perhaps there be hope for you yet?

 The UN is a valuable meeting place for the nations of the world.
 It is not a valid world governing body. Remember, I am the one
 who said democracy is the only legitimate form of government. A
 statement for which your right wing buddies jumped on me.

 Most of the members of the UN are either not real democracies,
 or not even pretending to be democracies. We need to meet with
 them, but dictatorships don't even have the right to exist, lest
 wise run the world.

 RC>>> in the wake of WW2 created Israel.

 More history you don't think we should discuss?

 BK>>  I have said over and over, the UN had no authority to create any
 BK>>  nation. They especially had no authority to take any land and
 BK>>  give rule of that land to an outside party.

 RC> Do remember that the middle east after the fall of the
 RC> Ottoman Empire in WW1 was under mostly British
 RC> "supervision"..

 IOW, they were colonizing it. Hardly a moral basis for anything.

 RC> I believe they had a big hand in determining alot of what
 RC> the current borders are?

 Which they had no real right to do either.

 RC> But its really too late to dote
 RC> over what you said the UN shouldnt have done 58 years ago.

 It's desperately necessary to set right what they UN should or
 shouldn't have done 58 years ago.

 RC> Whats done is done.

 And done and done and done again. We are living through the
 fallout from what was done wrong then, and it will continue for
 generations unless we make it right now.

 RC>>> The Israelis accepted the decision that created them and

 BK>>  The welcomed it with joy.

 RC> Should they have cried and refused?

 Should you have stated it honestly the first time?

 RC>>> they tried to abide by it and was set upon within 24 hours
 RC>>> or less after both the USA and USSR recognized them as a
 RC>>> country.

 BK>>  Tried to abide by it? Look at the borders. What part of those
 BK>>  borders were created by the UN? And the UN does not recognize
 BK>>  border change by force.

 RC> Well, we took an awful amount of territory from Spain in a
 RC> war that had questionable justification and our military
 RC> still is stationed in territory belonging to former enemy
 RC> states from a world war.

 The UN didn't exist then. And what part of that territory do we
 still occupy? Gitmo is all I can think of off hand. We took
 territory from Spain, that Spain had no right to in the first
 place, and set it free. Who else has made a habit of that?

 RC>>> If the "other side of this issue" cant accept it, screw
 RC>>> them.

 BK>>  If the other side of this issue can't accept it, Israel is
 BK>>  doomed.

 RC> With Israels won/loss record, I suspect the other side is
 RC> more than likely the ones to face doom?

 The Israeli record vis a vis Hizbalah is Hizbalah 1, Israel 0.

 It's looking that way now.

 Even Israeli military officials are admiting it looks like they
 will be unable to inflict significan damage on Hizbalah.


BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... Recommendation for the Bush presidency- Turn that baby around and go home.
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