Text 36741, 372 rader
Skriven 2006-08-14 12:51:00 av BOB KLAHN (1:123/140)
Kommentar till en text av ROSS CASSELL
Ärende: Hezbolla
================
BK>> Your point? I was rebutting what he said, whether conservative,
BK>> libertarian, or pastafarian, he was wrong.
RC> Thats your opinion..
DUH!
Of course, there is the fact that I backed up *MY OPINION* with
facts.
RC> Since you cannot always be right, all of the time, then
RC> your assertion that he is wrong cannot be stated as a fact
RC> or are you going to make an exception this time by telling
RC> me that you are always right?
I only have to be right this one time. Which I am, according to
the *EVIDENCE*.
RC>>> got your mentally retarded liberal panties all twisted in a
RC>>> wad.. Typical of you Klahn.
BK>> Injustice and fraud and deception and lies has a negative effect
BK>> on me. People who spread hate on the basis of lies have a
BK>> negative effect on me.
RC> Apparently you have no issues with what you spew?
It is correct that I have no issues with the truth.
BK>> Perhaps you are too morally retarded to understand that.
RC> I have far more morality in my left pinky than you will
RC> ever have in your fat liberal little body.
You just contradicted yourself in that sentence. Let's see if
you are bright enought to figure it out.
BK>> You think Isarelis are little godlings, who are incapable of
BK>> doing wrong. The people are lied to just like they are here. And
BK>> they are deceived. The government of Israel misleads as part of
BK>> their power game.
RC> You are projecting, my position is simple, I dont blame
Damn! You really pretend to know what that means? Or did you
just ignore the fact that you started this exchange by doing
exactly that?
RC> Israel for their actions, be it the people of Israel or
RC> their govt and since the govt of Israel is comprised from
RC> the people of Israel, with its Parliament being freely
RC> elected by the people I am not going to do the hair
RC> splitting you attempt to do.
The government of every democracy is elected by the people. That
doesn't change the fact that sometimes they do wrong, and when
they do, it's quite often the govt that goes against the will of
the people. Or lies to them.
RC> I dont blame them one bit, when surrounded by vicious
RC> wolves, one has to protect oneself.
Paranoia is not a good basis for national policy. Protecting
oneself does not justify striking out wildly and visciously
against the innocent.
You deleted, and ignored this part of my original post. Seems
whatever Wolves Israel is surrounded by, Lebanon and Hizballah
are not numbered among them.
**************************************************************************
RC> Q: Has Hezbollah acted on that goal with aggressive,
RC> military action?
RC> A: Yes, with just enough frequency to satisfy its sponsors
RC> (Iran, Syria) and enough infrequency to avoid an all-out
...
Actually, apparently no. In searching the web for this, I found
exactly 1 attack on Israeli terrority since 2001, before July 11
2006, listed as "Hizballah sponsored". That was in early 2002,
between two Kibbutz. The Kibbutz Hanita was identified with
this. I don't know what "Hizballah sponsored" means, and I have
found little on this.
My main source is the Israli web site for the "Jerusleum Center
for Public Affairs." The article was written in 2003 by an
Israeli Military reserve colonel. I have found nothing since
then. That site is the source for much of what I am posting. The
spelling I am using, Hizballah, is the spelling used by the US
State Dept and Isreali sources I have found.
The site lists two other incidents, one in the Palestinian
refugee camp at Jenin, which is in the West Bank, *NOT* Israeli
territory, the other in the Sheeba Farms, territory that was
disputed between Lebanon and Syria, but Syria has yielded their
claim to Lebanon. In any case, it is *NOT* Israeli territory.
In the July incident, the Hizballah mortar attack did not kill
one single Israeli civilian. All the casualties were military.
As to where it took place, I have seen numerous references,
including the first reference in Forbes, that said it was in
Lebanon, not Isreal. I have not found anything definitive on
that yet.
**************************************************************************
Over and over I see Hizballah *THREATENS* Israel, not by any
word or dead, but simply by possessing rockets. In the meantime
Israel has vastly more firepower, yet isn't this a threat to
Lebanon? Remember, these are largely Israeli websites.
BK>> The reality is, Israel has done wrong in the past. The reality
BK>> is Israel has done great evil in the past. Look at the
BK>> refugee camps of Shatila and Shabra they acted as guards while
BK>> allowing the Christian militia to conduct a massacre of women
BK>> and children. They attacked the Liberty, which they say was a
BK>> mistake, but they made repeated attacks on a ship flying the
BK>> American Flag with no attempt to determine if it was friendly or
BK>> hostile.
RC> Whatever, you can recriminate all day and all night long
RC> about the past, we the USA have plenty to be ashamed of, we
RC> shot down an Iranian jet, several times in the early parts
RC> of the cold war we had bombers stray from patrol routes and
RC> infiltrate USSR airspace unintentionally, could have
RC> started armageddon? WE used to and probably still do fly
RC> our U2's over other countries to spy on them..
The Iranian jet is the only one up there I will give you is
wrong. The rest is diversionary BS. You divert to avoid the part
you deleted, the real moral issue.
Restored from previous msgs. Notice, this is not just what
happened in the past, but what they are doing in this invasion.
**************************************************************************
They attacked a UN Refugee site in '96, and in the current
hostilities they attacked a UN observation post, and killed 4
observers. The claim is that Hizballah was using it as a shield,
but the observers were under attack for 6 hours, before they
were hit and killed. In that time they and their superiors made
repeated calls to their Isreali contacts to tell them there were
no Hizballah in the area. Further, after they outpost was hit,
the UN commanders arranged with Israeli authorities to send a
convoy to check on the outpost, when they lost contact. The
convoy was attacked. Isreali artillary had previously targeted
Hizballah sites near the post, and the UN observers had reported
that fact. However, this time there were no Hizballah in the
area. Some former observers stationed at that post believe the
attack was deliberate to prevent the UN Observers from doing
their job of reporting Isreali movements and attacks. Since the
post was decades old, well known to Israel, and well marked,
they make a strong arguement.
Others believe it was another attack on Hizballah forces near
the post, only it was a mistake because there were no such
forces there. That arguement is reasonable, except for the hours
of UN pleading for a halt to the attack. That strongly suggests
that decades of garrison duty has so compromised Isreali command
and control as to make them an undisplined occupation force.
**************************************************************************
RC> Recriminate all you like boy, the past is engraved in stone.
His, and your, entire arguement is based on the past, on
history, on the history of the establishment of Isreal. Only
his and your history is also based on a fraudulent history of
Hizbalah and the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. As below.
You used this as your reply to the UN not recognizing border
change by force.
**************************************************************************
RC> Well, we took an awful amount of territory from Spain in a
RC> war that had questionable justification and our military
RC> still is stationed in territory belonging to former enemy
RC> states from a world war.
**************************************************************************
RC>>> You wont admit that Israel didnt create its problems, that
BK>> I'm sure Israel didn't creat most of it's problems, anymore than
BK>> Lebanon created most of it's problems, or the US created most of
BK>> our problems. However, that isn't what we are talking about.
BK>> What we are talking about is Isreal attacking a country that had
BK>> most of it's problems caused by the outside world, including
BK>> Isreal in particular, putting them under foreign control and
BK>> letting their ability to function as a country be destroyed.
RC> You forget Syrias involvement in Lebanon..
No, I didn't. But you may have. After all, if Syria and Iran are
pulling Hizbalah's strings, as claimed by Israel, then punishing
Lebanon is shown to be truly evil. Why doesn't Israel punish
Iran and Syria? Maybe because Iran and Syria are a real danger
to Israel, esp since the Shah was overthrown and Iraq is no
longer a counterbalance to Iran. Whether they can defeat Israel
is irrelevant. It's the ability to inflict great damage that
counts.
From immediately above.
**************************************************************************
BK>> most of it's problems caused by the outside world, including
BK>> Isreal in particular, putting them under foreign control and
BK>> letting their ability to function as a country be destroyed.
**************************************************************************
Israel occupied the south, left the rest to Syria. It was
Israel's destruction of Lebanon's ability to run itself that
left open the occupation by Syria.
RC> As a country Lebanon let things evolve as they did simply
RC> by letting itself become infested with all those terror
RC> groups hellbent on the destruction of the country to its
RC> south.
You ignore the reality. I reminded you of reality, but you
didn't dispute it, just ignored it. Again, Lebanon had no choice
in the matter. Had the West backed up the govt of Lebanon it
might have been a different matter. We didn't Israel didn't.
Lebanon didn't get much choice.
RC> If we had a right to go into Afghanistan and punish the
RC> Taliban for not doing anything about Al Queda, then Israel
Which didn't happen. What did happen was, the US went into
afghanistan because Afghanistan actively hosted a terrorist
organization they had full capability to expel, or destroy.
That was justified.
RC> has the same exact right to take the reprisals against
RC> Lebanon for not containing the Hezbollah. Maybe even moreso
Israel has zero right to take reprisals against Lebanon, first
because they are punishing the civilian population, second
because the govt of Lebanon did not have the capability to
remove Hizbalah. That last has been admitted by Israel, but you,
in your high and mighty morality, have ignored rather than
respond to.
RC> when you consider Lebanon and Israel are neighbors and
RC> Afghanistan and the USA are not.
When you consider that Lebanon has no record of attacks on
Isreal, and Hizbalah is only accused of one "sponsored" attack
since 2001, your entire line of justification is revealed as
false.
BK>> If Isreal expects Lebanon to control and disarm Hizballah then
BK>> Isreal must allow Lebanon to develop a military force sufficient
BK>> to accomplish that goal. That's how it works. There is no other
BK>> way.
RC> So in the interim, all the people in Northern Israel must
RC> leave their homes out of Hezbollah missile range, right Bob?
So, in the interim all the people of Southern Lebanon must leave
their homes out of Israeli air attack and artillary range? Oh,
there is no where out of range of Israeli attack.
Then again, it was Olmert who said no one ever died from being
uncomfortable.
However, since Hizbalah didn't launch it's rocket attacks
against Israel until after Israel attacked Lebanon, your comment
above is diversionary BS.
RC>>> beloved organization of yours known as the United Nations
BK>> Another lie on your part.
RC> You mean you dont see the UN as the answer to all the
RC> worlds problems, perhaps there be hope for you yet?
The UN is a valuable meeting place for the nations of the world.
It is not a valid world governing body. Remember, I am the one
who said democracy is the only legitimate form of government. A
statement for which your right wing buddies jumped on me.
Most of the members of the UN are either not real democracies,
or not even pretending to be democracies. We need to meet with
them, but dictatorships don't even have the right to exist, lest
wise run the world.
RC>>> in the wake of WW2 created Israel.
More history you don't think we should discuss?
BK>> I have said over and over, the UN had no authority to create any
BK>> nation. They especially had no authority to take any land and
BK>> give rule of that land to an outside party.
RC> Do remember that the middle east after the fall of the
RC> Ottoman Empire in WW1 was under mostly British
RC> "supervision"..
IOW, they were colonizing it. Hardly a moral basis for anything.
RC> I believe they had a big hand in determining alot of what
RC> the current borders are?
Which they had no real right to do either.
RC> But its really too late to dote
RC> over what you said the UN shouldnt have done 58 years ago.
It's desperately necessary to set right what they UN should or
shouldn't have done 58 years ago.
RC> Whats done is done.
And done and done and done again. We are living through the
fallout from what was done wrong then, and it will continue for
generations unless we make it right now.
RC>>> The Israelis accepted the decision that created them and
BK>> The welcomed it with joy.
RC> Should they have cried and refused?
Should you have stated it honestly the first time?
RC>>> they tried to abide by it and was set upon within 24 hours
RC>>> or less after both the USA and USSR recognized them as a
RC>>> country.
BK>> Tried to abide by it? Look at the borders. What part of those
BK>> borders were created by the UN? And the UN does not recognize
BK>> border change by force.
RC> Well, we took an awful amount of territory from Spain in a
RC> war that had questionable justification and our military
RC> still is stationed in territory belonging to former enemy
RC> states from a world war.
The UN didn't exist then. And what part of that territory do we
still occupy? Gitmo is all I can think of off hand. We took
territory from Spain, that Spain had no right to in the first
place, and set it free. Who else has made a habit of that?
RC>>> If the "other side of this issue" cant accept it, screw
RC>>> them.
BK>> If the other side of this issue can't accept it, Israel is
BK>> doomed.
RC> With Israels won/loss record, I suspect the other side is
RC> more than likely the ones to face doom?
The Israeli record vis a vis Hizbalah is Hizbalah 1, Israel 0.
It's looking that way now.
Even Israeli military officials are admiting it looks like they
will be unable to inflict significan damage on Hizbalah.
BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn
... Recommendation for the Bush presidency- Turn that baby around and go home.
* Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
* Origin: Try Our Web Based QWK: DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)
|