Text 37862, 179 rader
Skriven 2006-08-30 12:10:19 av Roy Witt (1:397/22)
  Kommentar till text 37844 av LEE LOFASO (1:123/140)
Ärende: CELEBRATION!          1/2
=================================
30 Aug 06 10:40, LEE LOFASO wrote to ROY WITT:

 LL> Hello Roy,

 >>LL> A conditional surrender would have given the Japanese high command
 >>LL> some leverage, although not much, in regards to saving their own
 >>LL> skin.

 >>RW> See above. What they finally agreed to was an unconditional
 >>RW> surrender, one that didn't even protect their precious Emperor.

 >>LL> The unconditional surrender meant surrender under terms of the
 >>LL> Potsdam Agreement.

 >>RW> Correct.

 >>LL> Any set of terms means such a surrender was conditional.

 >>RW> Sure, but in this case, the conditions were set by the winner, not
 >>RW> as the loser would have it.

 >>LL> Japan chose to surrender to the Americans rather than to the
 >>LL> Russians. There was a reason why.

 RW>> Of course! They knew the philosophical difference between the two
 RW>> was different. Would they rather be free under a democratic regime
 RW>> or would they rather be slaves under a communist regime. There
 RW>> really was no choice.

 LL> Philosophical difference

Is exactly what you point out below...thanks for playing.

 LL>  had little or nothing to do with it.  The Japanese thought they
 LL> would get better conditions by surrendering to the Americans rather
 LL> than to the Russians.

 >>LL> IOW, the unconditional surrender that Truman accepted was the
 >>LL> unconditional surrender as defined by Harry S Truman.

 >>RW> No, unconditional surrender is a surrender without conditions,
 >>RW> except for those provided by international law.

 >>LL> Had Japan surrendered to the Russians, the so-called "unconditional
 >>LL> surrender" would have been much different than the so-called
 >>LL> "unconditional surrender" imposed upon Japan by the United States.

 RW>> See above.

 LL> The will of the Emperor was everything to the Japanese.  The
 LL> Japanese worshipped the Emperor as a living god.  What the Emperor
 LL> said, the Emperor got.  IOW, there was no will of the people.

Sure there was a will of the people. To worship the emperor god.

 LL>   And that is the way it had been since time began.  Even today,
 LL> Japanese culture remains virtually the same as it had been centuries
 LL> before.

No...it's quite different today.

 LL> Japanese society has changed, to be sure.  But society and culture
 LL> are two very different things.  A society can exist within a culture.
 LL> But a culture cannot exist within a society.

What have you been smokin'? The US is a society with multi-cultures within
it's borders. Japan has at least two cultures within it's society.

 >>LL> Not necessarily the same thing as the unconditional surrender as
 >>LL> defined by the Potsdam Declaration.

 >>RW> Not quite. The initial unconditional surrender terms were spelled
 >>RW> out at the Casablanca Conference 1943, which was presented to the
 >>RW> US people via a 'Fireside Chat' by radio from FDR.

 >>LL> It was the Potsdam Declaration that was the basis of the
 >>LL> unconditional surrender.

 RW>> Wrong. It was the one I mentioned above that set the stage.

 LL> The Japanese Cabinet wrote the imperial rescript and the Foreign
 LL> Office drew up the note of final surrnder, sending it off to its
 LL> ministers in Switzerland and Sweden.  Here is what it read -

Which was setup from the beginning at the Casablanca Conference...

 LL> ---

 LL> Communication of the Japanese Government of August 14, 1945,
 LL> addressed to the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, the
 LL> Soviet Union, and China:

 LL> With reference to the Japanese Government's note of August 10
 LL> regarding their acceptance of the provisions of the Postsdam
 LL> Declaration and the reply of the Governments of the United States,
 LL> Great Britain, the Soviet Union and China sent by the American
 LL> Secretary of State Byrnes under the date of August 11, the Japanese
 LL> Government has the honor to communicate to the Governments of the
 LL> Four Powers as follows:

 LL> 1. His Majesty the Emperor has issued an imperial rescript regarding
 LL> Japan's acceptance of the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration.

 LL> 2. His Majesty the Emperor is prepared to authorize and ensure the
 LL> signature of his government and the Imperial General Headquarters of
 LL> the necessary terms for carrying out the provisions of the Potsdam
 LL> Declaration.  His Majesty is also prepared to issue his commands to
 LL> all military, naval and air authorities of Japan and all the forces
 LL> under their control wherever located to cease active operations, to
 LL> surrender arms and to issue such other orders as may be required by
 LL> the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces for the execution of the
 LL> above-mentioned terms.

 LL> [The Decision To Drop The Bomb, by Len Giovannitti and Fred Freed,
 LL> 1965, pp. 294-295]

 LL> ---

 >>LL> However, Truman chose to ignore the Potsdam Declaration when it
 >>LL> came to the status of the Emperor.

 RW>> Truman had nothing to do with it.

 LL> Truman had everything to do with it.

Nada...

 >>LL> To put it simply - there is no such thing as an unconditional
 >>LL> surrender.

 >>RW> There is, if you're the loser. Japan found that out when they
 >>RW> presented an offer of surrender under certain conditions, which was
 >>RW> denied by the allies.

 >>LL> The United States rejected Japan's offer of conditional surrender.

 RW>> Correct! And in the process, the US proposed an 'unconditional'
 RW>> surrender that the Japs accepted.

 LL> The Japanese accepted the conditions proposed in the Potsdam
 LL> Declaration.

Which were drawn up at the Casablanca Conference, which was attended by
Roosevelt, not Truman.

 LL> Of course, once the Japanese actually surrendered,
 LL> they had little choice but to go along with whatever America
 LL> wanted.

 >>LL> Except in the game of chess.  In which case an opponent might be
 >>LL> left with no other choice.  :)

 >>RW> I keep a big hammer in my luggage for such games.

 >>LL> Friedrich Nietzche practiced philosophy with a hammer, so why not
 >>LL> play chess the same way?

 RW>> Nietzche is dead. He didn't know how to play the game.

 LL> Nietzche played chess in his head.

 >>LL> As for the status of Hirohito, a "secret deal" was made between
 >>LL> President Harry S Truman and Hirohito, thus allowing the Emperor to
 >>LL> keep his head.

 >>RW> Wrong.

 >>LL> Hirohito survived because Truman allowed him to live.  It's that
 >>LL> simple.
 >>>> Continued to next message

 LL>  * SLMR 2.1a * Facts. What are facts? There are no facts.
 LL>  * Origin: Try Our Web Based QWK: DOCSPLACE.ORG (1:123/140)

               R\%/itt


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