Text 40010, 127 rader
Skriven 2006-09-26 18:25:01 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
  Kommentar till text 39772 av Jeff Smith (1:14/0)
Ärende: terrorism
=================
Hello Jeff.

24 Sep 06 14:06, you wrote to me:

 MV>> By implication you do. You claim to be able to do the job that
 MV>> Björn can not.

 JS>      I offer observations of the current condition of the echo and
 JS> also offer suggestions based on personal experience to help improve
 JS> that same current echo condition. Any yes I offer opinions of possible
 JS> causes of problems within the echo.

But you totally ignore any thing tother than a failing moderator as the cause
of the problem.

 JS>>> But I was able to avoid feed cut requests through communication.

 MV>> Only because you had the weapon as a backup and the user knew it.

 JS>      But I didn't need to use the weapon or even use the threat of the
 JS> use of the weapon.

The user knew that you had it and would use it if push came to shove. That
makes all the difference.

 JS>>> While I never had to resort to a feed cut I did require a number
 JS>>> of people to "Go somewhere else for abit" from time to time.

 MV>> Ah, so you *did* have to use the weapon. You *did* ban
 MV>> participants from the echo. That you did not really have to call
 MV>> the assistence of a hub to have it enforced make no real
 MV>> difference, you used the weapon....

 JS>      The weapon (Requesting an echo feed be severed) was never
 JS> nessesary.

The weopon is the authoirty to (temporarely) ban partcipants from the
conference. You *did* use that weapon. That you did not actually have to call
in the enforcer (the feed cut) to acomplish it does not matter.

 JS>      Requesting that someone take a time out from the echo was on
 JS> occasion nessesary. Which they did agree to do.

That the user complied out of respect is self delusion. The user complied
because he was afraid he would permanently be banned if he did not
"voluntarily" comply.


 JS>>>      The task is not impossible. It just depends on ones level
 JS>>> of determination.

 MV>> I say it is impossible. I have not seen any moderator of an
 MV>> interzonal non topic bound echo to effectively deal with
 MV>> uncooperative partcipants. When Joe Delahaye was moderator of
 MV>> FN_SYSOP he failed to control Roy. He tried to expell him, but
 MV>> was unable to. When Roy became moderator of FN_SYSOP he tried to
 MV>> expell Ward but failed.

 MV>> When Roy had his nodenumber removed from the nodelist, Björn
 MV>> asked that he refrained from posting in FN_SYSOP. For the
 MV>> FidoNews echo he asked that Roy stpped posting from unlisted node
 MV>> numbers and that mail movers would stop feeding the unlisted
 MV>> numbers Roy was using. Het got ZERO cooperation. Everyone who fed
 MV>> Roy just kept on doing so.

 JS>      Looks like you have clearly demonstrated that people had little
 JS> or respect or acceptance for Björn as the moderator. Had they some
 JS> respect I think the outcome would have been differant.

What is shows is that Björn was boycotted. He has been boycotted from day one.
By the hard core of Z1 who refuse to accept a moderator that will not fit into
the Z1 mold.

 MV>> Need I go on? read my lips: it is impossibkle to get a feed cut
 MV>> these days and therefore it is impossible to moderate an
 MV>> unwilling participant. If they are unwilling to moderate
 MV>> themsekves, there is nothing the moderator can do.

 JS>      Thats my point, an effective moderator usually makes the need for
 JS> a forced feed cut unnessesary.

he can only do that beacause he *has* the feed cut as a backup ad the users
know it. This respect thing is nonsence. Obnoxious users do nt have respoct,
they have fear of losing their feed.

 JS>>> I am not minimizing what you are say Michiel. I agree that
 JS>>> moderating today's echos is differant than it was years back.
 JS>>> But I think that the task can still be done.

 MV>> Then you must be superman. Every one else who tried in the last
 MV>> five years has failed.

 JS>      <g> Trust me, FAR from it. I just try to look at things with
 JS> failure as not being an option.

Ah yesd, that fanous American saying: failure is not an option. I say it is
nonsence.

 JS>>> Secondly is that moderator *appears* to have given up. Something
 JS>>> that people in an echo are quick to pickup on. It is like waving
 JS>>> a sign that says "I DON'T @#$%ING CARE!! HAVE AT IT!!".

 MV>> Jeff, I do not know how old you are, but I can tell you that when
 MV>> you reach a certain age, there comes a point that you realise
 MV>> that the most precious commodity in life is time. It is finite
 MV>> and irreplacable and so you do not want to waste it any more on
 MV>> absolutely useless things like trying to talk some sense into
 MV>> people like Roy, Frank or Dan.

 JS>      I'm currenty 51 and holding. <g>

Then I hope for you that you will soon see the light and stop wasting time on
the impossible.

 JS> To me time is a variable. I may live to be a hundred or I may die
 JS> tomorrow. That is assuming that I don't do something stupid any time
 JS> soon.

That goes for all of us. Few of us know how much time we have left, but we know
that it is a finite.

Cheers,

Michiel

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