Text 40037, 182 rader
Skriven 2006-09-26 16:39:35 av Jeff Smith (1:14/0)
  Kommentar till text 40010 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: terrorism
=================
Hello Michiel.

26 Sep 06 18:25, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff.

 MV> 24 Sep 06 14:06, you wrote to me:

 MV>>> By implication you do. You claim to be able to do the job that
 MV>>> Björn can not.

 JS>>      I offer observations of the current condition of the echo
 JS>> and also offer suggestions based on personal experience to help
 JS>> improve that same current echo condition. Any yes I offer
 JS>> opinions of possible causes of problems within the echo.

 MV> But you totally ignore any thing tother than a failing moderator as
 MV> the cause of the problem.


     The moderator is the person responsible for maintaing order and
requesting behavior changes of participants when nessesary amoung
other things. If there is a problem in the echo it is up to the
moderator to work to correct the problem. To suggest that the
responsibilty for the echo staying in it's current state of chaos
should belong elsewhere is just denying the reality of the situation.
The participants cause the chaos. If the moderator is ineffective or
just doesn't care to work to correct the problems The blame for the
ongoing problem is then the moderator's.

 JS>>>> But I was able to avoid feed cut requests through
 JS>>>> communication.

 MV>>> Only because you had the weapon as a backup and the user knew
 MV>>> it.

 JS>>      But I didn't need to use the weapon or even use the threat
 JS>> of the use of the weapon.

 MV> The user knew that you had it and would use it if push came to shove.
 MV> That makes all the difference.

 JS>>>> While I never had to resort to a feed cut I did require a
 JS>>>> number of people to "Go somewhere else for abit" from time to
 JS>>>> time.

 MV>>> Ah, so you *did* have to use the weapon. You *did* ban
 MV>>> participants from the echo. That you did not really have to call
 MV>>> the assistence of a hub to have it enforced make no real
 MV>>> difference, you used the weapon....

 JS>>      The weapon (Requesting an echo feed be severed) was never
 JS>> nessesary.

 MV> The weopon is the authoirty to (temporarely) ban partcipants from the
 MV> conference. You *did* use that weapon. That you did not actually have
 MV> to call in the enforcer (the feed cut) to acomplish it does not
 MV> matter.

 JS>>      Requesting that someone take a time out from the echo was on
 JS>> occasion nessesary. Which they did agree to do.

 MV> That the user complied out of respect is self delusion. The user
 MV> complied because he was afraid he would permanently be banned if he
 MV> did not "voluntarily" comply.


     Were you there to be able to say that that WAS the case?  No you
were not. Grasping at straws again to try to explain why things can only
be the way you see then?


 JS>>>>      The task is not impossible. It just depends on ones level
 JS>>>> of determination.

 MV>>> I say it is impossible. I have not seen any moderator of an
 MV>>> interzonal non topic bound echo to effectively deal with
 MV>>> uncooperative partcipants. When Joe Delahaye was moderator of
 MV>>> FN_SYSOP he failed to control Roy. He tried to expell him, but
 MV>>> was unable to. When Roy became moderator of FN_SYSOP he tried to
 MV>>> expell Ward but failed.

 MV>>> When Roy had his nodenumber removed from the nodelist, Björn
 MV>>> asked that he refrained from posting in FN_SYSOP. For the
 MV>>> FidoNews echo he asked that Roy stpped posting from unlisted
 MV>>> node numbers and that mail movers would stop feeding the
 MV>>> unlisted numbers Roy was using. Het got ZERO cooperation.
 MV>>> Everyone who fed Roy just kept on doing so.

 JS>>      Looks like you have clearly demonstrated that people had
 JS>> little or respect or acceptance for Björn as the moderator. Had
 JS>> they some respect I think the outcome would have been differant.

 MV> What is shows is that Björn was boycotted. He has been boycotted from
 MV> day one. By the hard core of Z1 who refuse to accept a moderator that
 MV> will not fit into the Z1 mold.


     If there was any boycotting it was based on Björn and his performance
as moderator and the lack of respect that people had in him as moderator.
Don't you think that someone should be responsible for their own actions?
Don't you think Björn should be responsible for the manner in which he
moderates and the results of his job of moderating? Or is he somehow
exempt?

 MV>>> Need I go on? read my lips: it is impossibkle to get a feed cut
 MV>>> these days and therefore it is impossible to moderate an
 MV>>> unwilling participant. If they are unwilling to moderate
 MV>>> themsekves, there is nothing the moderator can do.

 JS>>      Thats my point, an effective moderator usually makes the
 JS>> need for a forced feed cut unnessesary.

 MV> he can only do that beacause he *has* the feed cut as a backup ad the
 MV> users know it. This respect thing is nonsence. Obnoxious users do nt
 MV> have respoct, they have fear of losing their feed.


     Then you have very very low standards for moderators. Threaten a feed
cut. If that doesn't work then throw up your hands and give up and blame
someone/anyone else.  What a poor concept of moderating that is.


 JS>>>> I am not minimizing what you are say Michiel. I agree that
 JS>>>> moderating today's echos is differant than it was years back.
 JS>>>> But I think that the task can still be done.

 MV>>> Then you must be superman. Every one else who tried in the last
 MV>>> five years has failed.

 JS>>      <g> Trust me, FAR from it. I just try to look at things with
 JS>> failure as not being an option.

 MV> Ah yesd, that fanous American saying: failure is not an option. I say
 MV> it is nonsence.


     That is not suprising coming from you Michiel. An idea from an
American, it can't be anything but nonsense. People are laughing at you
Michiel. Me? I'm just shaking my head and sighing.


 JS>>>> Secondly is that moderator *appears* to have given up.
 JS>>>> Something that people in an echo are quick to pickup on. It is
 JS>>>> like waving a sign that says "I DON'T @#$%ING CARE!! HAVE AT
 JS>>>> IT!!".

 MV>>> Jeff, I do not know how old you are, but I can tell you that
 MV>>> when you reach a certain age, there comes a point that you
 MV>>> realise that the most precious commodity in life is time. It is
 MV>>> finite and irreplacable and so you do not want to waste it any
 MV>>> more on absolutely useless things like trying to talk some sense
 MV>>> into people like Roy, Frank or Dan.

 JS>>      I'm currenty 51 and holding. <g>

 MV> Then I hope for you that you will soon see the light and stop wasting
 MV> time on the impossible.


     I hope I am always able to try the impossible. How dismal I would be
if I would settle for merely a half hearted attempt at something.


 JS>> To me time is a variable. I may live to be a hundred or I may die
 JS>> tomorrow. That is assuming that I don't do something stupid any
 JS>> time soon.

 MV> That goes for all of us. Few of us know how much time we have left,
 MV> but we know that it is a finite.

 MV> Cheers,

 MV> Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20060315
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Jeff

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 * Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - MN USA (1:14/0)