Text 40255, 323 rader
Skriven 2006-09-30 13:50:36 av Jeff Smith (1:14/0)
Kommentar till text 40245 av Felipe T. Dorado (2:345/702)
Ärende: Reasonable
==================
Hello Felipe.
30 Sep 06 11:49, you wrote to me:
FD> Hola Jeff :)
FD> Jueves 28 Septiembre 2006 21:45, Jeff Smith escribió a Michiel van der
FD> Vlist:
MV>>> You succeed in /sounding/ reasonable.
JS>> Well, that's at least a start in the right direction.
FD> It is. At least af face value it sounds ;)
Assuming someone is open to accepting things as they actually
are. Time will tell.
MV>>>>> but in reality
FD> Ah, there you go again ...
MV>>> /If/ he would effectively moderate. "Effectively" of course
MV>>> being
MV>>>>> You may deny it but what you say is exactly what a supporter
MV>>>>> of
JS>>>> Zone 1, zone 2, why should it matter?
FD> There! Should it matter?
No it shouldn't. An idea and it's value should not be limited to
nationality or geography. Ideas that can work can come from anyone
anywhere on the planet. That is assuming that they are not rejected
based on where or who they come from. Which is the case here.
FD> This z# business has been going on since I first read the echo for the
FD> first time. And it hasn't stopped since. :(
Yes it sadly has. Which only confirms and makes clear the fact that
something needs to be done. Do we stay with a way that is clearly not
working or do we try something differant?
MV>>> Because it *does* matter, that is why. Zonal differences *are* a
MV>>> factor whether you want them to be or not.
JS>> Zonal differences are a factor just as long as we allow them
JS>> to be.
FD> If those differences really were there and they still are, do they
FD> really matter? They do? So long as people maintain them. And not
FD> only are they maintained but also are perceived as they are to stay
FD> there forever because there's no way to smooth them out.
Those differances are needed and perpetuated by some that think that
their way is the only way. That the Zx way is the only way and that any
other way from any other zone is inherently bad. As long as that mentality
continues zonal differences will continue. My point is that we should
continue to work to eliminate those differences. Regardless of how hopeless
some may think or want it to look.
FD> There's no way? Fine: _do away with whoever thinks they are
FD> perennial!!_ Why not? Is there anymore to lose? No.
Do away? No. Work with to better establish an understanding and a
trust? Yes.
FD> Would there be any problem in not having a single post in this echo
FD> for, say, a month? Two, three? It is our network. We can do as we
FD> please ... /can ;)
FD> Ah, that we cannot do as we please in our network? Then it is not
FD> ours.
Remove all the posts containing flames, profanity, needless insults,
offtopic stuff, Etc. I bet you would have a pretty well empty echo. The
current fair (Me included) has pretty well pushed out those that would have
posted Fidonews related messages. This echo should belong to Fidonet. Not to
zone 1 or zone 2 or any zone for that matter. Bias and prejustice currently
play too big a part. Where someone comes from is too important.
JS>> Don't you agree that it would be better if people were NOT set
JS>> apart and divided by the zonal seperation that exists today? I
JS>> know zones will not go away but that doesn't mean that we HAVE to
JS>> keep letting them divide us any more than is absolutely
JS>> nessesary.
FD> Right so: more than absolutely necessary.
FD> It seems that to understand those zone differences would mean having
FD> to go through tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands messages
FD> ... Forget it. One simply can't. And there's no way that someone that
FD> has been here long enough would be able to impartially give a
FD> reasonably brief account of what has been going on to somebody new to
FD> the net.
No. You miss the point. Better understanding is done though better
communication. That and the slow process of realizing that people from
other countries. other zones, Etc are not automatically bad.
JS>> I think you are of the mindset that we have been separate,
JS>> separate is all that seems to have ever been, separate is normal,
JS>> separate is the only way that things can work. Thoughts and ideas
JS>> from people outside are not to be trusted. Their way is wrong,
JS>> their way can't work. I make absolutely no claim to any special
JS>> wisdom. All I am saying Michiel is that zonal differences are the
JS>> current condition. That doesn't make them nessesary or even good.
JS>> Let's work to make them go away.
FD> And if that effort is considered useless right before even trying then
FD> let whoever thinks so go his way. The situation seems that desperate.
FD> At least seeing it from this far ignorant-of-things point of view.
That effort is considered useless only by those that refuse to try.
Either they are afraid or want things to stay seperate and will resist
any change. If they are just afraid then things can be worked out. If they
on the other hand do not want change and have an agenda. Then they will
eventually be set aside by those that are willing to work together to
eliminate existing differences.
JS>> What is more important, the
JS>> welfare of both the Fidonews and the echo or appearing to be
JS>> giving in to some small perceived group of troublemmakers?
FD> To that small group _and_ to those who allow them to continue to be.
True.
JS>> Why give them that much
JS>> control? Why allow them to dictate how things will be? The
JS>> solution it would seem would be for the current moderator to
JS>> actively work to gain control of the echo and still do it in a
JS>> zone 2 manner.
FD> And do it in _any_ manner. Including the unthinkable: close the echo
FD> for a few months even :\\ It "goes against policy"? So what? The
FD> situation in untennable. If the stew is burnt and has already cracked
FD> the pot you have to thorw the pot all together anyway.
Do what needs to be done to make Fidonews and this echo what they should
be. Use a way that works regardless of origin.
JS>> To me there isn't a Z1 or a Z2 way of doing things.
FD> I agree. This zone business is old.
FD> Maintaining it is what prevents any possible solution.
Agreed. The roadblock are those that resist or refuse to allow change.
JS>> It should be whatever way works the best.
FD> Precisely.
JS>> The lesser-prefered alternative
JS>> is to find a moderator that is both willing and capable of doing
JS>> the job. It shouldn't matter what zone (s)he would be from. All
JS>> that should matter is that the job gets done.
FD> _That the job gets done_.
JS>> More segregation Michiel. That is NOT a step toward a
JS>> solution but yet another step toward the end of Fidonews and
JS>> Fidonet.
FD> Which is something that the guys maintaning the "zone differences"
FD> seem to have forgotten long ago.
Either have forgotten due to it having been that way for far too
long or those that want the zonal differences to stay for their own
personal agendas.
JS>>>> It would serve no purpose other than to segregate Fidonet more
JS>>>> than it already is.
MV>>> FidoNet already is hopelessly segregated. I have given up all
MV>>> hope of ever mending the differences between Z1 and Z2. The
MV>>> hostilities, the insults and the arrogance, it has been going on
MV>>> too intense and for too long now. There is a saying "to be
MV>>> unknown is to unloved", but unfortunately the converse does not
MV>>> always hold. To get to know each other better does not always
MV>>> lead to people becoming friends.
FD> Michiel probably has good reasons for this thinking. And "the other
FD> side" has probably has good reasons to think the same.
I have tried not to attack Michiels reasons for thinking as he
does. I have attacked his unwillingness to even consider alternatives
though.
FD> There are people out here who _do not care about_ this at least
FD> ten-year-old differences. Why are they still at them in _our_ Fidonews
FD> echo??? Fight them out in an echo for them and whoever is interested
FD> in them. Not here in the most public of all echoes.
I would not have a problem with that. Any step to help get this
echo back ontrack is a positive step IMHO.
FD> Sorry to be blunt but: out with all of the fight!
FD> One thing is debate, discussion, argument, even fighting, and a very
FD> different thing this permanent stalemate in just about anything. You
FD> guys are not talking, you are barking at each other. And it stinks
FD> ...
You noticed that smell too?
FD> I do not mean any offence. Not to any individual. Just putting it so
FD> that it is seen as from the outside. I'm not inside because I can't
FD> read all that has gone or is going on. I am not informed. I may even
FD> be terribly mistaken, and as Jeff said:
No offense taken. Often times a view of things from someong standing
back can be helpfull and enlightening.
JS>> I make absolutely no claim to any special wisdom.
FD> But I have the right to express my discontent and even anger at the
FD> example this echo gives of what FidoNet is.
Absolutely. This echo is currently an example of why prople would
want to avoid fidonet instead of a reason to join it.
JS>> Then let those that haven't given up and still have the
JS>> desire to mend the differences a chance. Why work, fight, and
JS>> argue to make things worse and further segregate? I can
JS>> understand frustration and despair. The world is full of it as I
JS>> am sure that we both know. What I have a hard time understanding
JS>> is to let that frustration and despair that you feel make you
JS>> want to keep the differenses between us.
FD> That goes for everybody who keeps talking about differences.
FD> Sort them out by netmail, gosh!
I would think an open forum would be best. I wouldn't want to limit
from where or who ideas may come from.
JS>> No, getting to know each other better doesn't guarentee
JS>> friendship. Never has so far at least. But getting to know each
JS>> other better does help us understand each other better. Better
JS>> understand our differences and hopefully how to better understand
JS>> how to minimize them. Better communication and understanding is
JS>> probably the most important thing we can do.
FD> It may even sound naive but that is what we can and could do.
As I have also been called. That will not keep me from continuing
to try though.
JS>> If we can get enough people to accept those differences that
JS>> we cannot change an work to change those that we can. We can
JS>> make it happen.
FD> I'm afraid unless the ranting, insult, barking and whatever is not
FD> present for a while _people are terrorised_ to come here to express
FD> any reasonable opinion :( That is the doing of all concerned :(
FD> Shutting the echo for a while and starting afresh is a last resort. It
FD> should not be needed but it is the only solution to the gangrene that
FD> I can think of. Will the people who can do it be brave enough to take
FD> the step? Or can we find a better one?
FD> I, and three or four more people I've talked to, are fed up and angry
FD> at the state of the echo. And at "both sides" if they really exist and
FD> it is not just a groups of guys trying to have the last word.
Add me to that list Felipe.
FD> Felipe :)
FD> --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5
FD> * Origin: El Zoco BBS, COrdoba, Espa-na, UE, Tierra, Sol, VL.
FD> (2:345/702)
Jeff
--- FMail/Win32 1.60
* Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - MN USA (1:14/0)
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