Text 40245, 205 rader
Skriven 2006-09-30 11:49:30 av Felipe T. Dorado (2:345/702)
  Kommentar till text 40193 av Jeff Smith (1:14/0)
Ärende: Reasonable
==================
Hola Jeff :)

Jueves 28 Septiembre 2006 21:45, Jeff Smith escribió a Michiel van der Vlist:


 MV>> You succeed in /sounding/ reasonable.

 JS>      Well, that's at least a start in the right direction.

It is. At least af face value it sounds ;)

 MV>>>> but in reality

Ah, there you go again ...



 MV>> /If/ he would effectively moderate. "Effectively" of course being

 MV>>>> You may deny it but what you say is exactly what a supporter of

 JS>>>      Zone 1, zone 2, why should it matter?

There!  Should it matter?


This z# business has been going on since I first read the echo for the first
time. And it hasn't stopped since.   :(


 MV>> Because it *does* matter, that is why. Zonal differences *are* a
 MV>> factor whether you want them to be or not.


 JS>     Zonal differences are a factor just as long as we allow them to be.

If those differences really were there and they still are, do they really
matter?   They do?  So long as people maintain them. And not only are they
maintained but also are perceived as they are to stay there forever because
there's no way to smooth them out.

There's no way?  Fine: _do away with whoever thinks they are perennial!!_
Why not?  Is there anymore to lose?  No.

Would there be any problem in not having a single post in this echo for, say, a
month?  Two, three?
It is our network. We can do as we please ...  /can  ;)

Ah, that we cannot do as we please in our network?  Then it is not ours.


 JS> Don't you agree that it would be better if people were NOT set apart and
 JS> divided by the zonal seperation that exists today? I know zones will not
 JS> go away but that doesn't mean that we HAVE to keep letting them divide us
 JS> any more than is absolutely nessesary.

Right so: more than absolutely necessary.

It seems that to understand those zone differences would mean having to go
through tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands messages ...
Forget it. One simply can't.
And there's no way that someone that has been here long enough would be able to
impartially give a reasonably brief account of what has been going on to
somebody new to the net.


 JS>     I think you are of the mindset that we have been separate, separate
 JS> is all that seems to have ever been, separate is normal, separate is the
 JS> only way that things can work. Thoughts and ideas from people outside
 JS> are not to be trusted. Their way is wrong, their way can't work. I make
 JS> absolutely no claim to any special wisdom. All I am saying Michiel is that
 JS> zonal differences are the current condition. That doesn't make them
 JS> nessesary or even good. Let's work to make them go away.

And if that effort is considered useless right before even trying then let
whoever thinks so go his way.
The situation seems that desperate. At least seeing it from this far
ignorant-of-things point of view.


 JS> What is more important, the
 JS> welfare of both the Fidonews and the echo or appearing to be giving in to
 JS> some small perceived group of troublemmakers?

To that small group _and_ to those who allow them to continue to be.

 JS> Why give them that much
 JS> control? Why allow them to dictate how things will be? The solution it
 JS> would seem would be for the current moderator to actively work to gain
 JS> control of the echo and still do it in a zone 2 manner.

And do it in _any_ manner. Including the unthinkable: close the echo for a few
months even  :\\
It "goes against policy"?  So what?  The situation in untennable.
If the stew is burnt and has already cracked the pot you have to thorw the pot
all together anyway.

 JS> To me there isn't a Z1 or a Z2 way of doing things.

I agree. This zone business is old.
Maintaining it is what prevents any possible solution.

 JS> It should be whatever way works the best.

Precisely.


 JS> The lesser-prefered alternative
 JS> is to find a moderator that is both willing and capable of doing the job.
 JS> It shouldn't matter what zone (s)he would be from. All that should matter
 JS> is that the job gets done.

_That the job gets done_.



 JS>      More segregation Michiel. That is NOT a step toward a solution but
 JS> yet another step toward the end of Fidonews and Fidonet.

Which is something that the guys maintaning the "zone differences" seem to have
forgotten long ago.


 JS>>> It would serve no purpose other than to segregate Fidonet more
 JS>>> than it already is.

 MV>> FidoNet already is hopelessly segregated. I have given up all hope of
 MV>> ever mending the differences between Z1 and Z2. The hostilities, the
 MV>> insults and the arrogance, it has been going on too intense and for
 MV>> too long now. There is a saying "to be unknown is to unloved", but
 MV>> unfortunately the converse does not always hold. To get to know each
 MV>> other better does not always lead to people becoming friends.

Michiel probably has good reasons for this thinking. And "the other side" has
probably has good reasons to think the same.

There are people out here who _do not care about_ this at least ten-year-old
differences.
Why are they still at them in _our_ Fidonews echo???
Fight them out in an echo for them and whoever is interested in them.
Not here in the most public of all echoes.

Sorry to be blunt but: out with all of the fight!
One thing is debate, discussion, argument, even fighting, and a very different
thing this permanent stalemate in just about anything. You guys are not
talking, you are barking at each other.  And it stinks ...

I do not mean any offence. Not to any individual. Just putting it so that it is
seen as from the outside.
I'm not inside because I can't read all that has gone or is going on. I am not
informed. I may even be terribly mistaken, and as Jeff said:

 JS> I make absolutely no claim to any special wisdom.

But I have the right to express my discontent and even anger at the example
this echo gives of what FidoNet is.



 JS>      Then let those that haven't given up and still have the desire to
 JS> mend the differences a chance. Why work, fight, and argue to make things
 JS> worse and further segregate? I can understand frustration and despair. The
 JS> world is full of it as I am sure that we both know. What I have a hard
 JS> time understanding is to let that frustration and despair that you feel
 JS> make you want to keep the differenses between us.

That goes for everybody who keeps talking about differences.
Sort them out by netmail, gosh!


 JS>      No, getting to know each other better doesn't guarentee friendship.
 JS> Never has so far at least.  But getting to know each other better does
 JS> help us understand each other better. Better understand our differences
 JS> and hopefully how to better understand how to minimize them. Better
 JS> communication and understanding is probably the most important thing we
 JS> can do.

It may even sound naive but that is what we can and could do.



 JS>      If we can get enough people to accept those differences that we
 JS> cannot change an work to change those that we can.  We can make it happen.

I'm afraid unless the ranting, insult, barking and whatever is not present for
a while _people are terrorised_ to come here to express any reasonable opinion
:(
That is the doing of all concerned  :(



Shutting the echo for a while and starting afresh is a last resort. It should
not be needed but it is the only solution to the gangrene that I can think of.
Will the people who can do it be brave enough to take the step?
Or can we find a better one?


I, and three or four more people I've talked to, are fed up and angry at the
state of the echo. And at "both sides" if they really exist and it is not just
a groups of guys trying to have the last word.

Felipe :)

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