Text 44178, 136 rader
Skriven 2006-12-18 23:53:00 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
  Kommentar till text 44148 av bob klahn (1:275/311)
Ärende: Insults
===============
Hello bob!

On Sunday December 17 2006 18:29, you wrote to me:

 bk>>> Not. I know you don't live in this country, so you have not grown up
 bk>>> in this culture. But that word is offensive in any context.

 MvdV>> *Any* context? Hmmm....

 MvdV>> So how do you tell your children not to use it? When you can not
 MvdV>> even use it to tell them what word you are referring to?

 bk>  By pointing out to them that it is offensive.

You would have to use it at least once to make known what you are talking
about....

 bk>>>  True, which is why I do not call you a racist.

 MvdV>> Eh? I am puzzled why you would even consider that.

 bk>  I wouldn't, but others would, and you are points behind in
 bk>  defending yourself from the start.

Since I was never accused, I see no reason to go into defence mode.

 bk>>> However, there is also a responsibility for those who do not
 bk>>> live in the subject culture to accept the advice of those who do
 bk>>> on matters of that culture.

 MvdV>> Accept yes. Live up to it ....  maybe.

 bk>  Give it your best shot.

In this particular case that may not be too difficult, but be aware that
respecting the one's culture may conflict with respecting another one's
culture. One can not please everyone all of the time.

 bk>>>  That word is always offensive.

 MvdV>> I have some difficulty accepting that. I can accept that
 MvdV>> it is always offending to *you*. Maybe even to everyone in
 MvdV>> your subculture. But always for everyone in the US
 MvdV>> culture? Hmmm... no, you willjave to give me a bit more
 MvdV>> that just your say so.

 bk>  It's not at all offensive to white racists, or maybe even black
 bk>  racists.

Then how do you define "racist"? I suspect there is a circular definition
lurking around the corner....

 bk>  However, it's offensive to decent people. See, I know you from other
 bk> echos, so I count you as one of the decent people.

What other echos would that be? I am not aware of any other echo that we both
have recently been active in.

 bk>>>  The N-word is never acceptable in this country, and I doubt it
 bk>>>  is in any other country. None that I know of.

 MvdV>> Then you do not know all that much about other countries. It
 MvdV>> certainly is not offensive in *any* context here. It mostly is, but
 MvdV>> not always.

 bk>  Why would an English language word be used there?

To converse with people who do not speak Dutch here?

 bk>  And how many of those using it understand the meaning and context.

Anyway the USA is not the only country in the world where native English
speakers live. As one our friends from down under.

 bk>>>  The phrase, "Politically incorrect" is offensive,

 MvdV>> Now I am even more puzzled...

 bk>  Keep listening, it will all come clear.

Hmmm....

 bk>>> Some things really are wrong.

 MvdV>> You are wrong. It depends on culture. What is wrong in one
 MvdV>> culture can be perfectly all right in another. There is no
 MvdV>> absolute right or wrong.

 bk>  No, some things are truly wrong. Regardless of culture.

Such as?

 bk>  Some cultures accept things that are truly wrong, but that doesn't
 bk>  mean they are not wrong.

What generally accepted superior authority decides what is truly wrong and what
is just wrong depending on culture?

 bk>>>  Absolutely true. Now, accept that the word is truly offensive.

 MvdV>> I can go as far as to acceptt that it is truly offensive
 MvdV>> to *yo*.

 bk>  It is to those it is aimed at.

What if it is not aimed at any one?

 MvdV>> As long as there are cleaning ladies, society will be
 MvdV>> divided into people that can afford one and people that
 MvdV>> have no choice bit to be one...

 bk>  Not exactly true. If there were fewer people who had no choice,
 bk>  those who wanted one would have to pay enough that some people
 bk>  would do it for the pay increase. At $100,000/yr a lot of people
 bk>  will clean houses. Hell, I'd think about it. Maybe.

I don't think a cleaning person earning substantially more than a college
graduate would be an economically stable situation.

 MvdV>> The phenomenum of cleaning ladies emphesises unequality in
 MvdV>> society and that is offensive to some in some cultures.
 MvdV>> Therefore bragging about having a cleaning lady is a no-no
 MvdV>> in those cultures.

 bk>  Agreed, and I understand where you are coming from on this.
 bk>  I have read the rest of the exchange, or much of it. I don't
 bk>  think he understands what you are saying, but I do.

Oh, I think he understands very well. He is not as myopic as he sometimes
pretends to be. He will never admit it of course. That would spoil his image.


Cheers, Michiel

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