Text 10962, 188 rader
Skriven 2008-02-11 20:22:08 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
Kommentar till text 10948 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: Shootings in USA
========================
Hello Michiel.
11 Feb 08 20:53, you wrote to me:
MV> Hello Jeff,
MV> On Sunday February 10 2008 09:46, you wrote to Björn Felten:
BF>>> The same justification they use to deny you the freedom to
BF>>> rape any girl you see and take fancy to or to grab your
BF>>> neighbour's new car when your own is getting old.
JS>> Umm... Sorry but raping girls isn't what anyone that I know
JS>> here would consider a lost freedom. Course that may be differant
JS>> in other countries but I would hope not. The analogy you are
JS>> trying to use is way off Björn.
MV> I beg to differ. Not having guns is not what *I* consider a lost
MV> freedom.
That is the point I have tried to make to others also. I have no
problem with you or anyone else in other countries thinking as they
choose. That is their/your right as I see it. But when they start saying
that what we as Americans believe should or shouldn't be our right in
our own country is wrong. That is what I object to. I am making no
judgements as to whose idea might be better. What you and/or the people
there think is better for your country is fine with me. The fact that we
as Americans choose to want to keep a right that we have seemingly always
had is up to us to decide. You may choose to not see or agree and THAT is
fine. Don't misunderstand me here Michiel. I am not trying to put words
in your mouth. I am speaking in more general terms and am not directing my
comments solely at you.
MV> That may have something to do with the fact that I never had
MV> that right to begin with.
Very true. Your opinion is in part I think based on the fact that
in your country having or owning a gun has never been considered a right.
And therefore it is easier for you to form the opinion that guns should be
banned. Here we look at it differantly.
MV> And you never had the right to rape girls I suspect.
Ummm... Here that would be a crime that is punishable as follows:
Criminal Sexual Conduct
1st degree criminal sexual conduct - 30 years; $40,000 fine
2nd degree criminal sexual conduct - 25 years; $35,000 fine
3nd degree criminal sexual conduct - 15 years; $30,000 fine
4nd degree criminal sexual conduct - 10 years; $20,000 fine
5nd degree criminal sexual conduct - 1 year; $3,000 fine
The degree is based on the ages of both parties and the type of
contact or action involved.
MV> But as you note, that may be different in other countries. It
MV> certainly was different in other times. When man lived in caves and
MV> walked around in bear skin, females were prey as soon as they started
MV> to menstruate.
There is a movie (Can't recall the name; maybe Quest for Fire?) that
depicts the Neanderthal days. There is one scene that demonstrates that
time of a female's life back then.
MV> But as we evolved and getting young females pregnent as soon as
MV> possible was no longer needed for the survival of the species it
MV> became unfashionable and later a taboo.
But to what degree still varies depending on the country or culture.
JS>> Raping and stealing are not considered freedoms here. They are
JS>> crimes.
MV> Yet the practise lingered on until a mere two hundred years ago in the
MV> "droit de seigneur"....
That reminds me of another time "ius primae noctis" when the lord of the
manor would share the wedding bed with his peasants' brides.
JS>> The problem arises when the government starts to lessen people's
JS>> freedoms in an attempt to solve problems.
MV> Societies evolve and rights can not be unlimited. The right of the one
MV> is almost always an intrusion on the right of someone else.
MV> Compromises have to be made and for it to work these compromises have
MV> to be laid down in laws.
The problem arises when the government takes it upon themselves to
determine what the people want or what the government thinks is best for
the people. Maybe I from the old school but I still think the government
should reflect what the people as a whole think is right for them. The
problem here IMHO is that many people have become complacent and the
politicians have taken advantage of that to dictate what they think is
best.
MV> As societies evolve, the morals and the laws that reflect them change.
MV> It is unavoidable that during the process some perceive that change as
MV> a restriction of their rights.
Again that SHOULD really depend on the people at any given point in
time. And yes, that is from a democratic POV. <g>
MV> When I was young there were no speed limits. A 50 km/h speed limit in
MV> build up areas was introduced in the mid fifties IIRC.
I grew up in a city environment so I don't recall what the rural
limits were. The city speed limits have been 30-35 mph for as long as
I can remember. I remember when they lowered the highway limit from
65 mph (104km/h) to 55 mph (88km/h) thinking the lower speed limit would
save gas and lives. It turned out not to be true in either case and the
speed limit was eventually raised back up to 65 mph and today even
75 mph (120km/h) on interstate highways. But as is pretty normal here
people still drive 80-85 mph (128-136km/h) on the interstates.
MV> When I got my driver's license there still was no general speed limit
MV> outside build up areas.
I have always been meaning to get myself one of those. <g> Got mine
in the very early 70's in the city here. I think I have gotten less than
five speeding tickets in my entire life. Ummm... let me rephrase that abit.
I have only been caught less than five times. <g> I used to have a car with
a 500 ci motor in it that would flat out fly. I had to make a conscious
effort keep the speed down to a reasonable level.
MV> I could legally drive my car as fast as it would go outside city
MV> limits.
There were rural speed limits here but generally unless one did
something to draw attention to themselves the highway patrol didn't
say too much.
MV> A general speed limit was introduced around 1970. I could argue that
MV> the government had lessened my freedom and in fact I sort of felt like
MV> that at the time.
That is pretty much what the feeling here was after the highway speed
limit here was dropped down to 55 mph. Enough people wanted it back at 65 mph
and eventually when the government saw that what they were saying wasn't
actually true they conceeded to the wishes of the people and raised the speed
limit.
MV> But now I can see that when the roads got busier and
MV> cars got faster, it was unavoidable. Too many serious accidents.
MV> Unlimited speed is just too dangerous in a crowded country like this
MV> one.
That is true and I do not suggest that there shouldn't be a speed
limit. In actuallity I pretty much drive based on the road and traffic
conditions. I don't recall the last accident I had or the last ditch I
ended up in. Some years ago I used to race on a third mile oval asphalt
track. Yup, I was a circle jerk. <g> It gave me a chance to express some
of my urges I guess. It's neat when they have to cut the top of the car
off to get me out. Or when they have to spray the car down to put the
fire out.
MV> Same for guns. There is no need for everyone to have the right to a
MV> gun. Society can function very well without it and people can live in
MV> freedom and happiness without the right to own guns. Just like we can
MV> do without the right to rape and unlimited speed on public roads.
If that is what you and the people there believe then that is fine
with me. It is only when you (Or others) try to suggest what is right for
us to believe or what is right for us to want that I would object to.
There SHOULD be controls on gun ownership and posession here. I in no
way would suggest that anyone and everyone should be allowed to have or
own a gun. The right should be there UNLESS the individual has shown that
they should not be allowed to own or possess a gun.
MV> Our society has evolved to the point where we do not need citizens to
MV> have guns. Other societies have not advanced to that point yet. They
MV> banned rape, but still allow guns.
Again you judge others and what is right for them based on yourself and
your society.
MV> Cheers, Michiel
MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
MV> * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
Jeff
--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
* Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - region14.us (1:14/5)
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