Text 12487, 125 rader
Skriven 2008-03-12 12:00:41 av Jeff Bowman (1:229/500)
  Kommentar till text 12440 av Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
Ärende: Re: Bush Vetoes Waterboarding Bill
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WD> My take on that is because all those countries were invented by western
WD> powers. As of old there is no Iraq, no Iran, no Afghanistan, not even
WD> Saudi-Arabia. They all were "invented" in the west using what we would
WD> recognise as "borders" while the people there have different ways of
WD> differentiating. There are tribal differences, racial differences,
WD> religious differences .... throw that all in the melting-pot and you cook
WD> a stew of trouble. Under a "leader" (!) like Saddam the lid was securely
WD> fastened, now it's a free for all.
 
Unfortunately, even if we removed the established borders and leaders, I have
no doubt that the violence would not come to a stop anytime soon.  It might
even get worse, because then they'd probably be fighting for territory.  I
honestly don't know why they fight so much over there, when they've already
been fighting for hundreds of years and can see it's gotten them nowhere, while
the rest of the world enters the next century (again) and continues to leave
them behind.  Religion of course is the root of most of it, but how different
could the religion be, when as far as I know, it's almost all a Muslim area.  I
don't know a whole lot of history and might be wrong on this or forgetting
something, but I don't remember hearing of Christians fighting Christians that
fiercely, purely over religion.  Or anyone in a particular religion fighting
others of the same religion in such a way, for that matter.  Differences occur,
sure, and maybe conflicts come about, but not for hundreds of years.
 
 
WD> Freedom is something remarkable to people who've never known freedom. It
WD> takes quite a while of getting used to if for centuries you were ruled by
WD> some warlord.
 
WD> Look at Russia. Communism collapsed and they were free, yet in the west
WD> we can observe that balances are still not reached. There was a
WD> presidential election which was over faster than going to a KFC in
WD> Oklahoma.
 
That's a good way to look at it I suppose.  In Russia's case, I think a lot of
the people who ran parts of the government during the U.S.S.R. ended up being
in some of the same or similar positions once it was plain'ol Russia. So while
you have the appearance of a toppled government, at some level it's the same
thing. It will probably take them a few decades before they can completely move
away from it.  Hopefully in the meantime it won't degrade back into something
similar to what it was.
 
I really have no idea how much of Iraq's governing body we replaced. They're a
lot smaller, and they'd have needed people experienced enough to do the jobs,
which in a country like that, probably didn't provide a very large pool to
select from.  So like Russia, many of the same folks might be back in charge
there too in various positions.  And you're going to be hard pressed to find
people who aren't biased towards one sect or another, much like Saddam himself
was.  I wouldn't want it to turn into another Israel/Palestine situation, but
they might just be better off splitting apart in the long run.  Only problem is
them deciding how exactly to split it, considering the oil and everything is so
valuable.
 
 
 
WD>JB> I think you have to live in America to fully grasp how the government
WD> can
WD>JB> sell something off onto the American people.  The majority of them
WD> simply
WD>JB> don't care about politics.
 
WD> I'm very much aware. During my first stay in the US in an exchange
WD> programme in Montana, one guy asked me "You're from Belgium? So have you
WD> ever been to Europe?"    It's the same more or less with my alaska
WD> experiences. There they think Europe is a place where people come from to
WD> fish, hunt or hike in Alaska. And their main worry is how much their
WD> State Dividend will be that year on Alaskan oil.
 
While there are a few people in this country who are so uneducated that they
can't even find America on a map, the average population is probably not very
likely to find various European countries on one.  I myself am somewhat guilty
of that, even.  Not to the point where I ever thought Europe itself was a
country or anything, but it wasn't even until very recently that I (re)learned
exactly what the difference was between Britain, England, and the U.K.  Before
that I practically used the names interchangeably.
 
I don't consider it from a lack of education though, at least not in my
particular case.  It's just that when I learned about such things in school, it
was just one of those boring subjects to me, all about memorizing which shape
was which on a map.  I never found it interesting.  Learning Africa was even
worse.  These days though I have much more interest in Europe, yet still
couldn't name most of the countries if presented with a blank map! Maybe I'll
make that an optimistic "can't name them YET".
 
I guess some people chalk it up to American arrogance, but I guess most folks,
myself included, just never considered it something "important" enough to know.
 We have an idea of what's over there, that's usually good enough to know what
they're talking about on the news without knowing the exact layout. In fact,
probably the only reason I know the layout of the middle east as well as I do
now is because of the news these days.
 
 
WD> In the long term, imo Afghanistan is a bigger issue than Iraq. And
WD> Afghanistan has _never_ in its history been conquered by a ruler. It's
WD> not really sectarian like Iraq, it's very much tribal.
 
While Russia's occupation was a bit more brutal than anything America would
attempt, which even America recognized and lended them a hand against, I would
agree that there's not much chance of us completely succeeding there either.
But every Taliban/Al-Qaeda base or operative that we get is one less to worry
about, I suppose.
 
Speaking of the Russia/Afghanistan thing, I watched the movie "Charlie Wilson's
War" not too long ago, based on a true story of the US' involvement.  It's
worth seeing for anyone into that sort of thing, if you ask me. I even learned
a thing or three.  Plus it stars Tom Hanks, so that almost automatically makes
it good.
 
 
WD>JB> And now I save possibly the largest message I've ever sent on Fidonet
WD>JB> before it accidently gets lost somehow!
 
WD> It was a joy to read it, one of the best posts here in years. Please
WD> write more.
 
You say that now, but wait until I'm a bitter old man making such long-winded
posts.  I'll be jaded against everything by then!
 
Na in all seriousness though, I appreciate the praise.  Tis completely
unexpected for something like that, based on the normal reactions people I know
have to me talking about such things.  They either don't respond at all, or
just don't agree.  Or in my family's case, they don't understand enough about
any of it to care.  Doesn't stop me from spewing my opinion anyway! hehe

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