Text 15079, 225 rader
Skriven 2008-05-10 10:35:15 av Roy Witt (1:397/22)
  Kommentar till text 14983 av Robert Bashe (2:2448/44)
Ärende: Martial arts
====================
09 May 08 10:00, Robert Bashe wrote to Roy Witt:

 RB> Roy Witt wrote to Robert Bashe on Thursday May 08 2008 at 21:56:

 RB>>> And your trust of people with "legal" firearms is touching, but not
 RB>>> convincing.

 RW>> That's ok, I don't need to convince you. You may live in your world
 RW>> without.

 RB> I think I understand human nature better than you do, at least in
 RB> this specific case. Just to repeat: none of us are machines, and that
 RB> specifically includes "legal" gun owners.

I understand it perfectly. The stats on the restraint of 'legal' gun
owners in certain situations backs that up.

 RB>>> As I say, none of us are machines. I'm absolutely convinced you -
 RB>>> and I - could be incited to murder under the appropriate
 RB>>> conditions.

 RW>> In my case, it would be called self-defense.

 RB> Yes, I'm familiar with the "I felt threatened" excuse. The police
 RB> here use it whenever they shoot an unarmed civilian. But of course,
 RB> you're not a policeman.

And neither are your policemen really 'threatened' by an unarmed
civilian. There is what Michiel calls, 'might is right'. Even here.

 RB>>> It's so easy to pull a trigger.

 RW>> I guess if you felt not responsible for your actions, that would be
 RW>> true. Cooler heads always prevail.

 RB> Are you kidding or do you really believe that?

Not only do I believe it, I know it.

 RB>>> You might be interested to know that such things as "road rage"
 RB>>> simply don't exist in Germany.

 RW>> LOL! Yeah, that not so free society where you can be sued for
 RW>> calling someone a derogitory name.

 RB> Like to explain what that has to do with the subject?

It's called real freedom...people here call each other derogatory names
all the time. No one gets sued over it.

 RB>>> Nor do people carry guns to "protect" themselves.

 RW>> BS...

 RB> Truth. How long have _you_ lived in Germany that you dispute it?

You're saying that living in Germany somehow endows you with certain
knowledge that isn't available in UN statistics? CIA stats, etc...

 RB>>> Nor are people shot by hoodlems trying to rob them.

 RW>> More BS...

 RB> Same comment. Just because this exists in the States is no reason to
 RB> assume it exists everywhere.

I'll give you this, it happens less often in Germany than in other
European countries, but you can't deny that it doesn't happen at all in
Germany.

 RB>>> Nor do violent "gangs" exist to shoot up the cities.

 RW>> Soon.

 RB> Don't hold your breath.

I won't have to...

 RW>>  Intentional Deaths: United States vs.Continental Europe Rates

 RW>> In order of highest combined rate; nations having higher rates than
 RW>> the United States are indicated by asterisk (suicide rate) or + sign
 RW>> (murder rate).

 RB> I don't read anything about firearms out of that. Do you?

Fact is, one country allows private ownership of firearms, yet has a lower
murder rate than another country who has no ownership of firearms. Just
because you didn't see anything about firearms in there doesn't mean it
isn't a factor. It actually proves that when firearms aren't available,
Dutchmen find alternatives to murder someone. Firearms are not the
descriminating factor.

 RB> But I do read: Murder - USA 7.8, Germany 1.1. Suicide is a completely
 RB> different matter... I would suspect people generally shoot themselves
 RB> in the States, whereas people hang or poison themelves in Germany.

See.

 RB> But that's a national trait - in Japan, suicide is "honorable" and
 RB> presumably more prevalent than in any of the countries you cite.

That WAS honorable, up until the end of the WW2 era. Suicide is no longer
an honorable death there.

 RB> However, suicide by firearms is presumably low because of the gun
 RB> laws.

Exactly. When they wish to kill themselves, they have to find other means.
Which shows that firearms are not the deciding factor.

 RB>>> I suspect you in rural Texas also have no problems with such
 RB>>> things, but from what the media report, things in larger cities are
 RB>>> pretty hairy.

 RW>> I'm not exactly in rural Texas, it's a small city with a population
 RW>> of about 53,000.

 RB> In the States that's "rural" ;-)

Not really. It would be rural if I lived 30 miles from no where. I live
within 20 minutes of San Antonio with plenty of 'rural' cities in between.
New Braunfels, Schertz, Cibolo, Garden Ridge, Selma, Live Oak, etc.. San
Marcos (a college town with over 100,000 pop) is 15 miles north of here,
Sequin (non-college town w/50k or more is 13 miles south of here.

 RB>  I live in a town with a population of around 35,000 and I think we
 RB> may have a murder or two a year. Certainly not with firearms, though.
 RB> As I mentioned previously, knives are a good deal more common.

New Braunfels just convicted a man of arson for burning down his own
house, killing his dog. He can be sentenced to as much as life in prison
for that. Not to mention the charges of spousal abuse and cruelty to
animals.

 RB>>> I can remember my sister coming home one day (Cincinnati) and
 RB>>> telling how some crazy had shot three people at an office not far
 RB>>> from where she worked. That was in 2003.

 RW>> Diane Feinstein, now a US Senator, but then a San Francisco
 RW>> Council-person watched a mad man shot the mayor and several others
 RW>> on the City Hall steps. And there was a ban on firearms in that
 RW>> city.

 RB> Who cares about the city when all you have to do is to go to the next
 RB> town to get a gun?

She not only wants to ban them in the city, she has been a great influence
in California with strict gun laws. She would also like to see firearms
banned nationwide. She's a democrat and can't help herself.

 RB>>> Roy, the last time I was in the States was 2003. Have things
 RB>>> changed so radically since then, except of course the absolute
 RB>>> paranoia toward foreigners?

 RW>> There are currently 40 states that allow some sort of CC, while in
 RW>> 03, there may have been 30 or 32. Those with 'will issue' conceal
 RW>> carry permit laws have shown a decline in gun violence.

 RB> As always, I have to point out that two facts are not necessarily
 RB> causally related. The causality must be demonstrated.

Did you read the Harvard report that cited these factual findings?

 RW>> Before 03, I recall hearing and reading about foreigners (Germans)
 RW>> being robbed and killed on the Florida highways.

 RB> In Miami, and the reason was that the Florida rental cars had special
 RB> plates that made people driving them targets if they got into the
 RB> "wrong" neighborhood. In the meantime, the state mandates that rental
 RB> cars bear normal Florida plates.

I remember that incident, it was reported nation wide.

 RW>> Again, they were killed by people who do not obey any laws, so
 RW>> obviously, those who have firearms legally, and/or are licensed to
 RW>> carry, do not commit these crimes. Criminals do.

 RB> You _do_ have a simplistic view of things. Naturally I disagree.

I have statistics to back up what I say about it. I noticed that you
haven't done so.

 RB>>> On the other hand, as I say, my experience runs right up to 2003.
 RB>>> Don't assume I have no knowledge of the States just because I
 RB>>> haven't actually lived there for many years.

 RW>> Actually, I'll stand by what I said. You may have visited, but you
 RW>> have no idea what the States are really like. You cannot determine
 RW>> that over a few weeks visiting.

 RB> If I had _only_ visited, you might be right. But that's not the case.

I'm glad that you can make such a survey in a matter of a few weeks and
make that determination. Scholars with only that agenda in mind take years
to do that.

 RB>>> In fact, I suspect my knowledge of the States is a good deal better
 RB>>> than yours of Europe...

 RW>> I never claimed that I did. And this isn't about how much I know
 RW>> about Europe, it's about how much you don't know about America.

 RB> And yet you try to make comparisons, as above, based on statistics.
 RB> And statistics _do_ lie, as Chrchill one pointed out.

So, you'd rather go by the seat of your pants. How do you prove your
position?

 RW>> How many years have you lived in the States since you moved to
 RW>> Germany?

 RB> Nice try. How many years have you lived in Germany, that you think
 RB> you can judge and compare so well?

Since you moved to Germany 40 years ago, how long have you actually lived
in the States since then to be able to determine your position by
comparing it with real numbers rather than your biased thinking?

                R\%/itt



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