Text 22978, 196 rader
Skriven 2008-10-31 03:23:42 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
  Kommentar till text 22956 av Lee Lofaso (3:800/432.0)
Ärende: Loyalties
=================
Hello Lee.

30 Oct 08 15:08, you wrote to me:

 LL> Hello Jeff,

 >> JS>If Hussein had been able to buy/steal/aquire WMD's I have little
 >> JS>doubt that he would have.

 >> MV>The fact is that he didn't.

 JS>> And you know that to be a fact?

 LL> George W. Bush claimed he knew stockpiles of wmd exists in Iraq.
 LL> IOW, George W. Bush lied, given he had no such proof.  If he had
 LL> such proof, he would have been able to produce it.

    Bush lying about his asertion that Hussein had WMD's was wrong. But
that is not proof that there were or were not WMD's or that if they
existed that Hussein didn't manage to dismantle and smuggle them out.


 >> JS>His consistant jerking around of the UN inspectors showed
 >> JS>that he (Hussein) didn't want the world to know for sure what he
 >> JS>had.

 >> MV>Nobody wants to let the worls know exactly what they have.

 JS>> It would seem that if Hussein really wanted to show the world
 JS>> how wrong the US/Coalition was he would have made a effort. I
 JS>> submit that we don't KNOW if Hussein had WMD's and if so to what
 JS>> degree.

 LL> Everybody (including the United Nations) knew that George W. Bush's
 LL> claim was bogus.

   Then why did the UNMOVIC present a report to the Security Council on
Hussein's dismantling of missile and WMD sites before and during the war?

 JS>> But... The same should be said of the US. If the US government
 JS>> fealt that it could say that WMD's were in Iraq. The US should have
 JS>> been able to provide verification if requested.

 LL> The burden of proof was on George W. Bush.  He could not produce
 LL> any proof of his wild claim because he had no such proof.  That is
 LL> why everybody knows George W. Bush lied.

 >> JS>If he was so sincere about wanting people to know the truth he
 >> JS>wouldn't have worked so hard to conceal the truth.

 >> MV>It turned out he *was* telling the truth. He kept denying there
 >> were
 >> MV>WMD's in Iraq and he tld the truth.

 JS>> We still don't know that to be true.

 LL> Show me those stockpiles of wmd that George W. Bush claims exist in
 LL> Iraq.  You can't?  Don't feel bad.  Neither could George W. Bush.

    Yeah... Stop by and I'll show them to ya.


 JS>> It is true that to my knowledge none were found.

 LL> It is to everybody's knowledge (including George W. Bush) that no such
 LL> stockpiles of wmd exist in Iraq.  If such stockpiles of wmd did exist
 LL> and had been found, those stockpiles of wmd would have been produced
 LL> as evidence for all to see.  And if such stockpiles of wmd did exist
 LL> in Iraq, those stockpiles of wmd would have been found.  But since no
 LL> such stockpiles of wmd has ever been found to exist in Iraq, we all
 LL> know that George W. Bush told a lie.  Not just any lie, but a Big Lie.

     Umm... Lee I said that none were found. That wasn't a statement that
they never existed. I challenge you to provide proof that they never
existed. Do a little research Lee. Check and see how many differant
sources (Both US and international) including reports fron the UN inspectors
claiming that Hussein had WMD's. I would guess that in all likelyhood
if they existed they were probably smuggled over to Syria.

 >> MV>It was George Bush who was the liar, not Saddam Hussein. George
 >> Bush
 >> MV>claimed he had proof. That was a lie, he could not have had proof.
 >> If
 >> MV>he had, the WMD's would have been found.

 >> JS>But, that having been said I am not sorry that Hussein was
 >> JS>removed from power.

 LL> Oh, we just removed one tinpot dictator and had him replaced with
 LL> another tinpot dictator.  You call that success?

    You are free to whatever opinion you choose Lee. I would say that
it is too soon to tell. We know to some degree what life was like
under Hussein's rule of Iraq and his treatment of the Iraq people. Are
conditions better now in Iraq? Not yet but at least there is the chance
for conditions to improve. Or would you prefer Hussein?


 >> MV>Look at the mes over there. You really believe the people of Iraq
 >> are
 >> MV>better off now?

 JS>> Without Hussein there is the possibility of a better life.

 LL> People have been killing each other left and right in that part
 LL> of the world ever since time began.  Saying those people have the
 LL> possibility of a better life may not actually be a lie, but it
 LL> certainly is a ludicrous statement.  After all, a possibility is
 LL> just that.  A possibility.  No matter how great or small.

 LL> With Hussein in power Sunnis felt they had the possibility of a
 LL> better life.  With the removal of Hussein from power, Sunnis felt
 LL> they had no possibility for a better life, knowing Shiite hit squads
 LL> would be knocking on their door.  Shiites, on the other hand, felt
 LL> they did indeed have the possibility of a better life, especially
 LL> given that fewer and fewer Sunnis would be around.

 JS>> That is if external interests and manipulation are removed. The
 JS>> US's part should only be to allow the Iraqies to govern themselves.
 JS>> But that is what SHOULD be. What IS is the result of differant
 JS>> groups all trying to further their own agenda.

 LL> We allowed the president of Iraq to be murdered by a Shiite hit
 LL> squad.  In fact, we insisted upon it.  And then, once the deed was
 LL> done, we called it justice.

 >> JS>But I think it was wrong to do so prior to having the verified
 >> JS>proof. Personally I think the whole WMD thing had little to do
 >> JS>with the real reasons that some people of office(s) wanted an end
 >> JS>to the Hussein regime.

 >> MV>of course. The WMD issue was just an excuse for the invasion. And
 >> when
 >> MV>it fell apart another excuse was made up after the fact: to free
 >> the
 >> MV>people of an evil dictator and bring democracy. Wel, we all can
 >> see
 >> MV>how good that worked out.

 >> MV>And now that there is a lot more than just claims and stories,
 >> MV>you are the one saying there is no proof?

 >> JS>I think Bush was hoping.

 LL> Bush wasn't hoping for anything.  Bush knew it was all a lie from
 LL> the get-go.  So did Colin Powell, who made that silly presentation
 LL> to the United Nations on behalf of his scumbag of a president.

 >> MV>Bush is an idiot. He knew that he had no proof, and so he could
 >> have
 >> MV>known that they woild not be found or that insufficient evidence
 >> would
 >> MV>be uncovered to convince the world that they were ever there. No,
 >> what
 >> MV>he hoped for was that "bringing democracy to Iraq" would be a
 >> success
 >> MV>and that therefore the original reasons given would soon be
 >> forgotten.
 >> MV>All's well that ends well.

 >> MV>Many people warned Bush that it probably would not end well, but
 >> he
 >> MV>refused to listen. The result is more death than were ever on the
 >> tab
 >> MV>of Saddam Hussein, the region destabilized for generations and the
 >> MV>credibility of the US down the drain.

 >> MV>The lies of the shrub, Abu Graib and the Gitmo Hotel won't be
 >> forgoten
 >> MV>that soon....

 >> JS>Bush should have been straight about his reasons.

 >> MV>Had he been honest he would never have gotten enough support for
 >> the
 >> MV>invasion.

 JS>> If that was the result of being honest then I could have lived with
 JS>> that. But we're talking politicians here Michiel. Honesty is not a
 JS>> job requirement. <g>

 LL> President Pinocchio could not have had a longer nose.

 LL> --Lee


 LL>  * SLMR 2.1a * This clown is an equal opportunity asshole.

 LL> --- Maximus 3.01
 LL>  * Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org
 LL> (3:800/432)

Jeff

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