Text 23106, 100 rader
Skriven 2008-11-04 01:07:02 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
  Kommentar till text 23045 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: An unconvenient truth
=============================
Hello Michiel.

03 Nov 08 11:18, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff,

 MV> On Monday November 03 2008 01:17, you wrote to me:

 MV>>> You may fool yourself with the idea that the fact that those
 MV>>> WMD's were not found is not proof that they were never there,
 MV>>> but that won't make the inconvenient truth go away.

 JS>>    Wasn't it you Michiel that has stated that you don't believe
 JS>> the unproven or unverified? That you are only inclined to believe
 JS>> someone after proof is provided?

 MV> Indeed. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

    Agreed.

 JS>> The fact that the WMD's were not found simply means they were not
 JS>> found.

 MV> It means more than that.

    I disagree. The lack of the existance of WMD's at a particular moment
does not prove that they did not exist at some point prior to that moment.


 MV>  It means that George Bush lied. George Bush
 MV> said he had proof. That must have been a lie. If there is proof that
 MV> something exists, one must be able to provide. Either the proof or the
 MV> goods. But he didn't. Ergo: he lied when he claimed to have proof.

 MV> *That* is the onconvenient truth you will have to face....

    I have never supported Bush's use of WMD's as a reason for the
war in Iraq. Unlike the "Missles of October" there was no evidence
to support Bush's claim. To what degree Bush was deliberate in his
claim or just misinformed is unclear. Regardless, he made the decision
to use the WMD's as a reason.

 MV>>> Some day, you (y'all) will have to come to terms with the fact
 MV>>> that your elected president was a war monger who lied to his
 MV>>> people to get his way. And some day you will have to come to
 MV>>> terms with the fact that you (y'all) elected him again after
 MV>>> after you could have known that he was lying becauce the WMD's
 MV>>> were not found. "Wir haben es nicht gewuát" won't cut it.

 JS>>     I will go as far as to say that I think Bush believed what he
 JS>> was being told from many sources.

 MV> George Bush did not just say he believed Saddam to have WMD's, he said
 MV> he had *proof*.

     Is that what he was told or was that what he believed to be true?
Or, did he specifically know there were no WMD's? Does it really matter
Michiel?


 JS>> I will also say that Bush was wrong for using the matter of WMD's
 JS>> as a reason for the Iraqi war as their existance hadn't been
 JS>> verified.

 MV> Face it Jeff: Your elected president lied to you and the American
 MV> people believed it. An estimated 150 to 600 thousand people died

     And how many of those are estimated deaths versus confirmed
deaths? How many untold thousands of people would have continued to
die under the Hussein dictatorship and for how many years? The one
thing that I will say is that the Hussein evil was a known quantity in
Iraq. But I also continue to think that a chance for a better life for
the Iraqi people is better than no chance. Which looked to be the case
with Hussein.

 MV> because of that dreadful mistake.

    Whether it was a mistake or not all depends on who you ask.


 JS>> I will also submit that your dislike of the US makes you willing
 JS>> to believe anything that speaks ill of the US or it's government.

 MV> You mix up cause and effect.

 MV> Saddam was an ruthless dictator, but it is the US that is responsible
 MV> for the present mess in Iraq. That - among other things - is the cause
 MV> for my dislike.

    I can understand your reasons.

 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Jeff

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
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